I wondered whether my post might have prompted some intelligent debate - so I popped by to have a peek, and I see it hasn't. It's very clear that you still haven't read the review or the accompanying article - if you had it would have saved you the embarrassment of raising issues ( again ) that are dealt with quite succinctly in those two articles. Still, it never hurts to reiterate a few facts in the hope that they might one day sink in - so here they are: You seem to feel that the onus is on me to resolve Keilwerth's manufacturing problems. Clearly you don't understand the consumer process. It's very easy. A company makes a product and puts it on the market. At this point it becomes subject to scrutiny - and in certain areas of the market there exists a number of organisations and publications that test these products on behalf of the consumer ( which is why we have such publications as 'What Hi-Fi', 'Which', and 'PCPro' ). My review pages act in exactly the same fashion, detailing the pros and cons of each product so that consumers can be better informed when they buy. If those reviews are false then the manufacturers, quite rightly, have recourse to a number of methods by which they can seek to have them removed. My review still stands. Would you jump on a plane to Osaka if you'd bought a flaky DVD player? Of course not - and it's no more my responsibility to sort out Keilwerth's problems that it would be yours to resolve the manufacturing problems at the place that built your faulty DVD. As you appear to be Keilwerth's 'champion' - why haven't you jumped on that plane? You have all the evidence you need, if you cared enough to read it. And you seem to think that I haven't made my concerns known to Keilwerth. Again, you're entirely wrong as usual, and would have known this had you read the articles. I've corresponded with Keilwerth themselves on the matter, I've corresponded with the vice CEO of Music Group ( their parent company ) who, incidentally, thanked me for bringing the matter to his attention. I've also corresponded with people involved in the design philosophy at Keilwerth. These aren't anonymous people on web forums, these are the bigwigs behind the manufacturing process. Compare this then with your own 'experience'. Your whole argument rests on the fact that you once visited the factory. OK, if you feel that makes you an expert then here's an expert's question for you. In my review I neglected to mention one other critical issue that could arise from the use of soldered on tone hole rings. You've seen the factory, you've examined the manufacturing process, you've presumably ( as I have ) spoken to people concerned with the design and build. What then is the unmentioned potential problem, and what can be done to resolve it? I'd give you a clue, but I feel sure you don't need it - and I'm sure the good readers of this forum would be only too pleased to see you share with them your considerable expertise and insight... As to my reasons for being here - I see many comments dotted around the web about the review in question, and on the whole I feel it's a good thing to see that it generates robust debate...but where I see people spouting complete nonsense dressed up as fact I quite enjoy dropping in to expose them as the frauds and charlatans they are. I believe my work is done. Now, I believe you have work to do - and as regards that 'extra sense', I'd ditch it if I were you..it seems to prevent you seeing much further than the end of your nose. Regards, Steve Howard ( shwoodwind.co.uk )

The knights Templar find this very amusing.Of course you would like us to go a way.We interfear with your stratagy and tactics on this matter.We have a right to our opinion, its not your opinion.Thats what a forum and a democracy is about.Its possible you made the while thing up, its also possible you didnt thats forum interaction for you.You need to learn the second rule of business.So to use your words of threat, to us to "Ditch it".Frankly that is an even bigger joke to us.To even bother to react to us is starting to tell its own story.If youve dealt with the company i cant see your problem.Now its clear of your motives.The knights dont even rule out the possibility that this original post had a conflict of interest with you.Because you appeared on the scene a bit too quick in our view.No our opinion is there may have been some isolated cases which for whatever publicity gain or whatever reasons your trying to turn into an epedemic.The knights templar are jazz musicians and savants by definition.We are afraid that we are far too smart , beat to quarters and cleared for action (Bird Lives)

Tango, just read his articles. He even shows pictures of the out of wack tone holes, and explains the problem further in a much longer addendum then originally posted. Here's the review of the tenor www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Buying/Keilwerth_sx90r_tenor.htm#Addendum and here is another page of interest www.shwoodwind.co.uk/HandyHints/Warped_toneholes.htm Check both of these out, and if you believe that he's only basing this on one review, read another one at this link www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Buying/Keilwerth_sx90r_anniv_alto.htm He even gives more pictures to illustrate his point. If you can complain about him after reading those than fine. If not, please write your response to me in some form that is not only understandable, but has been read over for spelling errors.

The knights Templar have had a look at this site and pictures you suggested. O very impressive.We dont have any complaints, we couldnt care less.Pictures on line dont mean a thing some one could easily set that up. Thats impossible to make a judgement on line by any body.Just like its impossible to judge anyone on line.Forums and websites have limitations,The knights templar could be a group of very important people or we could be total nobodys who no nothing but get a kick out of winding people up.In fact may never have played sax in their life and just gathered info on line.Even using other peoples call signs emails etc.You simply do not know.So the whole review and debate is a total waiste of time.The people if they have got the problem take the horns back to wherever they came from and change them. simple.Dont try it on Mr nobody knights Templar organisation go to Keilworth.O by the way we prefer that spelling but of course on line you cant tell how we pronounce it.We are just words on a screen.The only way to show this is registered complaints from round the world (to show scale of problem) checked by independant technitions.Until that has taken place there is no problem.Now are any of you getting the point we make..Because the knights templar dont care,waiste ot time. Keilworth make good saxes(Bird lives)

The knights Templar have had a look at this site and pictures you suggested. O very impressive.We dont have any complaints, we couldnt care less.Pictures on line dont mean a thing some one could easily set that up. Thats impossible to make a judgement on line by any body.Just like its impossible to judge anyone on line.Forums and websites have limitations,The knights templar could be a group of very important people or we could be total nobodys who no nothing but get a kick out of winding people up.In fact may never have played sax in their life and just gathered info on line.Even using other peoples call signs emails etc.You simply do not know.So the whole review and debate is a total waiste of time.The people if they have got the problem take the horns back to wherever they came from and change them. simple.Dont try it on Mr nobody knights Templar organisation go to Keilworth.O by the way we prefer that spelling but of course on line you cant tell how we pronounce it.We are just words on a screen.The only way to show this is registered complaints from round the world (to show scale of problem) checked by independant technitions.Until that has taken place there is no problem.Now are any of you getting the point we make..Because the knights templar dont care,waiste ot time. Keilworth make good saxes(Bird lives)

Correct spelling could help Dave

Mistake on duplication. The knights templar are sorry for this mistake, or may be they are not who knows. (Bird Lives)

Well, the UPS fortune tellers have told me that I'll have my SX-90R alto tomorrow. While the first thing I do with it will be to open the box and play it, within a month or so, I will have torn down and rebuilt it to my liking. With the keys off, I will use my trusty (flat as glass) bench anvil and post some feedback as to how level or unlevel the SX-90R alto fares. I'll use feeler gauges so my observations can be specifically noted. I'll also let folks know (assuming there's a problem to be fixed) if the horn plays any better with truly level toneholes - understanding that if they are really out of whack, I might have to replace the pads. As obvious as it seems how adding on rings could add an unwanted variable to the mix, it also seems equally obvious that if this were a real problem that Keilwerth would have addressed it by now. I'm just looking forward to that broad, long bow!

Have fun with it man; let me know how it sounds. I've been trying to find a dealer around where I live to try one out for kicks and giggles. And to address tango six niner whatever, I think you just like to be contrary. I agree that you have to take most of what is said online with a grain of salt, and when I see that you are the one posting it, I generally grab a spoonful or two. I'm not sure if you actually play saxophone or not. Some of your generalizations would seem to point at that. For all I know you’re a punk teenager that gets kicks out of angering people that don’t know him or have any easy way of finding out who he is. Who knows, you might be doing it to make for the inadequacies of your current life, or inability to strike back at the people who really are the cause of your mental instability. Perhaps your just looking for a rise to get a quick laugh off of. This is of course, just a hypothesis. I'm sure you’re a rational adult who plays saxophone and just likes to chime in on subjects on occasion. Good luck to you and the knights, may your saxophones always play in tune and your reeds be plentiful. (BYAS ROCKS)

Well shwwind, I did read the review, and the addendums, and you're other articles, and your reviews. I'll just say I like your site ;)

Well, I got my SX90-R alto tonight. It's a late 1990's model (I think, based on the 101xxx serial number) and mint aside from a couple scratches - so any breaking in to the pads has been done already. All I can say is I'm in heaven. THE SEARCH IS OVER! Like a Couf Superba 1 with various mechanical improvements. I feel like I just ate a Scooby Snack! The horn was so clean and well adjusted that I have no reason to take it apart, though I might remove the bow and bell keys down the road to check for tonehole levelness - just for the heck of it. Pads are dead-on tight. The horn rings when I "smack" a low Bb - no leaks here. Let me know if anyone's interested in my minty YAS23 ($495):

Alright Templar whatever. You guys are so full of it. It's obvious you haven't posted a single comment to back up your claims . And this notion that you are above everyone else and have some sort of 6th sense that we don't is PREPOSTEROUS. PLEASE, I beg, make some sort of intelligent claim that BACKS UP your argument. All you've done is give credit to Stephen. After complete dissection of everything I believe Stephen. I don't believe for a SECOND that Stephen is doctoring photos and making this stuff up. What in the world would he have to gain?! Sorry to subject you to these kinds of idiots Stephen, even though I don't like what you've found, it's obviously fact.

For those of you seeking more intelligent writing please refer to this thread on the saxontheweb.net discussion forum. We've got 4 pages of posts on this same topic. www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22392

I bet theres not a selmer mark whatever that has a warped tonehole! Joke, I still LOVE my 2 Keilwerths, even after reading all the bickering. Hey sax maniac my alto is sx90r 103xxx. I did a little looking and think its around 1996 or so when manufactured. I just find generic numbers and no definite dates. I love it though.

I did a tear-down and set-up on a brand new horn (I won't tell the brand to avoid being burned at the stake) that had nearly everytone hole (traditionally drawn) out of whack. Some were so bad I had to adjust the rim of the tone hole by as much as 1/8" before fine tuning them with my tonehole files. I was completely apalled and embarassed for the manufacturer. It's stuff like this that gets overlooked in the big business of instrument production. These days, good enough to sell doesn't necessarily mean good enough to play. Actually, I think this is a conspiracy perpetuated by elementary music educators that just as soon see the saxophone drop off the face of the earth. "Dear Mr. SelmerConnEtc - My students keep wanting to play saxophone - and making them out of tune on purpose just isn't working. Isn't there something you can do to make sure the saxophones won't play AT ALL?"

You just might be on to something there sax maniac!

This is to anyone who has tried to look up a serial# on Keilwerths site. They have updated there search program and you can find the year your horn was manufactured. I tried in the past with no success but I was just there and a new search menu was there. My alto sx90r 103xxx was made in 1995. Thought you all may want to know that. Atleast those of us that actually like Keilwerth horns. Good day. Jeff

Thanks for mentioning the serial number search. Apparently my alto is from 1994. I think my tenor (New King series 3) is from 1956 or 1957 - can't recall the number off the top of my head. They must have gotten tired of all the emails from sax freaks wanting to know whether their horn was 45 or 46 years old. Like it really makes a difference...

Well, I inspected and repaired the lower stack and bow/bell toneholes on my SX90R this morning. The bow and bell toneholes were the "worst" when it came to benig unlevel. I put "worst" in quotes as after leveling them I didn't notice any difference in the way the horn played after I fixed them. There was, indeed, double high spots opposite each other. I did not measure the size of the gap as the brass flat sort of rocked in place. It was certainly enough for light to pass through. Rocking the flat to one side accentuates the size of the problem by opening up the other side even more. So if it was 1mm low on both sides, for example, rocking the flat to one side would make the other side's gap appear to be 2mm - doubling the appearance of the actual problem. I would say that this lack of precision is odd to see on such an otherwise well designed horn. It makes me wonder what Keilwerth horns would be like today if it were not for H. Couf's design involvement years back. So after leveling the toneholes by very carefully pushing up from underneath with dent tools and a gentle touch from my tonehole files, I leak checked and reassembled the horn to find no noticeable difference in how it played. I lend the tonehole rim width to being more forgiving when it comes to pad leaks - which I have found on other RTH horns - old Conns, for example. So maybe those rings are helping JK get away with the leakiness. Gotta remember, too, that as those pads break in and set - that leaks are lessened significantly. JK includes key clamps - don't they? Mine had them for the naturally open bell keys. Good thing, huh? Of course, when I do a pad job, everything is level and seals without pressure and pads with no impressions in them yet - but you would think that this should be of no concern for a buyer of a new horn. Again, this seemed less of an issue for the stack keys. So did the horn have crooked tone holes? Undeniably so. Did the horn play any worse for it? Not at far as I could tell.

There is talk that keilwerth is in trouble,,,,, seems that only BUFFET is holding its own in the company sales ---with the onslaught of taiwan horns cosolidation and lower quality is inevitable and we will soon see only a handful of manufacturers left in the game as happened in every other field . Too bad ,,,but the global village is going to kill this industry as it is killing the symphony orchestra scene .

I've heard that about Keilwerth before. There are not many dealers around here, which surprises me, because I think they build a great sax. Of the music stores here in Michigan that I have dealt with, I think everyone sells Selmer, and most also sell Yamaha. A few carry Jupiter and Yanagisawa. One of the bigger stores near me also carries LA Sax, Conn, King (The new Conn-Selmer models). Sadly, I was unable to find a Keilwerth dealer locally. The nearest dealer to me is Marshall Music in Lansing, which is about 1 1/2 hours from me. It just surprises me that nobody in the Flint area, or Pontiac/Waterford area, with all the music stores around here, sells Keilwerth. I bought a new SX90 Soprano back in January, and I bought it mail order. I was pleased with the condition of the instrument when I received it. I did check it over and made a few adjustments, but overall, it played very well right out of the case. Jim

Jim - talking with Marshall's store in Troy, they said they used to have a Keilwerth horn in the inventory of one of their stores but it took a REALLY long time to sell - like over a year or two. So they will special order them but not keep them in stock. I suppose it's because there's just not enough JK's moving on volume, so they have to rely on WWBW or sax specialists like saxforte for their sales. Not to worry. Within 10 years, the Keilwerth factory will close on account of everyone buying Chinese junk horns and the JK's already in circulation will increase in value. So don't sell it! That or Selmer-Conn-Kraft-Fith-Third-Philip Morris will buy them out and bastardize yet another product line.

I heard a rumor that Selmer DID buy Keilwerth, but I have yet to see anything to support it! But, you're probably right! It's bound to happen sooner or later. The Selmer pigs have sought to buy out and bastardize any company that might compete with their overpriced, over-rated garbage! I don't think they have enough money to buy out Yamaha, thank God! Maybe we can count on at least one other choice besides the French Selmer or one of their cheap, bastardized, formerly a well known US horn now made in Taiwan or China saxophones! I'll say it again! I'll never own another Selmer!

they're going to need ore money than they have to get it out of TMG.

Connsaxman - keilwerth is part of the music group, or boosey and hawkes, or whatever it is called. It has been sold at least twice in the last year and a half. I can assure you that "selmer" didn't buy it out, which is now Conn-selmer. Everyone knew about it when conn-selmer bought out leblanc - the music group is even bigger, including: Besson, schreiber and Keilwerth and they also distribute buffet - the only clarinet manufacturer you really need to know about in modern times. nevertheless. The warped toneholes are a problem. I don't care for keilwerth horns too much, so I don't have a lot of experience with them, and the ones that I do, had the real rolled tone holes instead of this soldered crap. Randy jones, even if he were go, though he is a far cry, cannot just dismiss stephen howard's findings. it was QUITE obvious that those toneholes were NOT flat, just look at the pictures, there is no argument there unless you are completely retarded - if the tonehole doesn't touch all the way aorund of a flat object, the tone hole is not level, thi is very simple 6th grade math people - if a line isn't || to the X axis, it has a slope.

that should have been - "if randy jones were god."

I can do the math and geometry SaxMan, I'm a mechanical engineer. There is no doubt that some of the earlier SX-90R's have had problems with their tone rings. Even the most avid Keilwerth enthusiast will admit to that. The question is; for those people considering a new Keilwerth, has Keilwerth corrected this problem, and was it ever a wide spread problem to begin with? To the best of my knowledge, this was never a wide spread problem. I have spoke with a few techs, and a Keilwerth dealer who said that they have never seen an SX90R where the tone rings were out of spec. This is not saying that they were perfect, but within manufactures specifications. I don't know what the tolerance is; probably + or - .001, I would imagine. Keilwerth saxophones are very high quality. They are the Mercedes of saxophones. I do believe that Keilwerth has stepped up their quality control to assure that there is no longer a problem with these tone rings, and if there is a problem, I have absolute confidence in Keilwerth as a manufacture to take care of the problem! I wish I could say the same for Selmer, but after owning a Series III soprano, this proved NOT to be the case!

the shop I work at, never had a keilwerth with this soldered on crap - we only ever had an alto and tenor, that had real rolled toneholes - the only dealer in the state that ever brought in a keilwerth saxophone. BUT I have seen a few that came off of the internet - I can think of one person right now who has a tenor, that is absolutely hideous - the D key BARELY has a seat in it at one point, and it is onyl there I would imagine because of the pad killers that that kid uses on it. Where did you buy your selmer? the internet? there is your problem. horns used to be perfect from the factory, but now with these mass retailers, who don't give a damn if the horns are in adjustment or not, who buy more horns than anyone else, why should they spend all the time adjusting them perfectly, when they can spend that time, making more horns. It is how business works. If you can make a cost cut somewhere, with no one caring, then why not take it? Keilwerth saxophones come with pad killers, which is probably the only reason why they are not in the same boat with the other 3. Cannonball doesn't allow their horns to be sold on the internet.

Ok. Here it goes... No supposition... Since taking ownership of my 1994 SX90R alto (gold lacq) and my newer SX90R tenor (nickel-silver "kitchen sink" model - DEAD MINT upon purchase), I have totally disassembled, reviewed, repadded and adjusted both horns - leveling the toneholes on both. There's so much to say, but I'll keep to what I think are the pertinent points of my journey here. With the original pads on the horn, I didn't observe any pad leaks I would call significant - only imperfect due to action moreso than the pad to tonehole mating. The horns played fine as is. If the pad is warped/indented the same way the tonehole is and you get a good pad seal - then who gives a flying turd what shape they take - flat, convex, concave, both... BUT!!! And a very big but it is... My main reason for gutting and rebuilding was to resolve the sticky pad issue by replacing the pads with roo pads. Both horns had the warped toneholes, and the same trend on both horns - towards the bottom of the body tube, the amount of warp became quite significant and got worse going through the bow and bell keys. So if JK made manufacturing improvements, I've not witnessed them between 101xxx and 123xxx. The problem arises when replacing the pads with fresh ones that are flat and have no impressions from the tonehole rings. I certainly do not want to rely upon key clamps to create my pad seal. I do "gravity only" checks when I refurb. So it's either shim the pads very awkwardly around the pad cup or level the toneholes. I'd rather invest the time once than the same amount of extra time - everytime I do a repad. With roo pads and the rings, however, I don't expect I'll ever have to replace these pads. The problem is very very real and worth considering if a repad might be in your or your tech's future. These horns are my personal players and I want everything to be tip-top. Fortunately, I have the tools and fortitude to afford being a perfectionist in this regard. As a tech, I would charge probably around $300 above and beyond the cost of a repad to perform this leveling operation - and it's pointless to level the toneholes without replacing the pads (and vice versa). So after many hours of toil and persistence, I now have the horns of my dreams and I can trust them for the long haul. The JK sound and action, to me, are unbeatable, and this was all certainly worth the effort - now experiencing the end result.

I bought my Selmer Series III new from a local music store in Feb. 2003. It played beautiful when I bought it. I had no complaints for the first couple months that I owned it. Then it started falling apart! The corks falling off, the pearl key touches falling out, pads leaking, etc. The store took care of the problems as the horn was under warrenty, but it was very discouraging. Especially when I had a Conn soprano that was 78 years older that played better that this shitty new Selmer! Now I have a Keilwerth SX-90 that just blows the Series III out of the water! I traded the Series III for a 1949 Buescher 400 tenor which is just like new.

I've heard both good and bad about the pad saver/killers. I really do think they help. Keilwerth saxophones have the best pads of any sax I've seen. One of my best friends has a Keilwerth that he has been playing 3-4 nights per week professionally for the last 8 years. He uses the pad savers and the original pads on his horn are just like new. I love that sax! It sounds a lot like my 10M, plays really easy, and it just looks really cool. His has the actual rolled tone holes also. I believe it's a 1996 model. That horn really sold me on Keilwerth.

pretty much any horn you get, is going to go out of adjustment after playing it. I don't know of a shop around that doesn't price their horns, standard without at least a year of servicing. some people get the price down lower, then lose the servicing. Corks falling off, can happen from climate change - but I really don't see how that happenes, when my horn, went from paris, to new tork, to elkhart, to seattle then to alaska - there are 3 REALLY different climates in there, and ever bumper on my horn is orginal - and for the first 2 years, I played the ass off of it. The way selmer puts in their pearls - it is not possible for them to fall out. Selmer pearls are not glued in - they are set in similair to the way a dimond is set in its - ask a woman whatever that thing is called on an egagement ring. I didn't mean pad saver - I meant, pad killer/crusher/key clamps.

btw, if your selmer was having those problems...then it probably should have been sent back to the factory - its bull shit what selmer is letting happen, and buffet too - letting all sorts of crap by to get more horns to the internet retailers

My observation of this on my 1994 horn tells me that the tonehole issue doesn't have anything to do with pushing through mega amounts of horns driven by internet, etc. Keilwerths out of Germany have always been made in pretty small numbers. The decision was made, I'm guessing, to go with soldered rings in lieu of true RTH so they can use the same horn body for the SX90 and SX90R. It won't be long before JK is done making horns in Germany. Clock is ticking pretty loudly at this point. Same manufacturing competition issues affecting Western Europe as the US.

" It won't be long before JK is done making horns in Germany. Clock is ticking pretty loudly at this point. Same manufacturing competition issues affecting Western Europe as the US." yeah, but Germany is hurting for jobs... I don't know much about politics there but I doubt they would let another company close up and ship jobs out of country. but that's just my quick .02

I wish the governor of Michigan or the leadership of our nation felt the same way about the U.S. auto industry being decimated by foreign influences. But let's start a new thread for this one, ok?

...foreign influences and our health care system...