Saxophone Forum


by Saxquest
(420 posts)
19 years ago

Conn transitional saxophones - defined

Since creating Saxquest many years ago, I've seen quite a few Conn saxes pass through the doors here. Accordingly, I've been able to make several observations about 1930's vintage Conn saxophones and have kept a fairly detailed accounting of these observations. Since C.G. Conn never actually used the name "transitional", to the best of my knowledge, it seems that this is a term (although rather boring) that was coined by dealers, collectors, and enthusiasts alike at some point in the not so distant past to describe an alto or tenor that's not really a 6M/10M or a late vintage New Wonder (Chu Berry, as we like to call it). Conn changed many aspects of the saxophone from the late Chu to the early 6M (engraving, left hand table keys, bell keys, neck, octave mechanism, forked Eb key, thumb rest, the actual 6M or 10M stamp, etc.....) and not all of these aspects were changed at the same time. Furthermore, some changes were made first in the alto and then in the tenor. So, let me ask, what makes a sax a transitional versus a Chu Berry versus a true 6M or 10M?? How does this differ from alto to tenor? I'll share my list of detailed observations and my thoughts after a few replies have been kicked around. Cheers, Mark Overton

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  1. by connsaxman_jim
    (2336 posts)

    19 years ago

    Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

    Hi Mark, Good to see you around. I've seen a lot of 1930's vintage Conn saxophones also, and more than once, I've ran across one that surprised me! A lot of experimenting began with Conn saxophones as early as 1928. Many historians websites, and books that I have found consider the transitional years to be 1932-1934 and to start around serial number 249,000. Pete Hales of saxpics considers the transitional years to be 1929-1934, and I tend to agree. I have seen Conn saxophones as early as 1930 that are essentially a 6M/10M. Conn made many changes from the later New Wonder Series II (Chu Berry) to the early 6M as Mark said, such as engraving, left hand table keys, the same side B and Bb bell keys, neck, octave mechanism, forked Eb key, and thumb rest, and these changes took place between 1929-1934. Also as Mark said, some changes were made first to the alto and then to the tenor. In fact, typically, that was the case. So what is actually a 6M? Well, I suppose this is open to debate, but in my opinion, if it's not stamped 6M, it's not a 6M, it's what historians and collectors refer to as a "transitional" model. Some of these saxophones have features of both the Chu Berry and the later 6M, which make them extra cool! Typically when I think of the "M artist series" (4,6,10,11,12,and 14M bass) I think of the lady engraving. The lady disappeared in 1959 I believe, but the M artist series was produced until 1971. A really great site for those of you interested in more information about Conn saxophones is "A Brief History of the Conn Company (1874-present)" www.usd.edu/~mbanks/CONTENT.html by Margaret Downie Banks, Ph.D. Curator of Musical Instruments National Music Museum Vermillion, South Dakota For a pretty accurate list of Conn serial numbers, as well as other brands, check out Dr. Rick's Village Sax and Flute Shop. www.drrick.com If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to drop me an email. Jim

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    1. by TANGO SIX ONE
      (255 posts)

      19 years ago

      Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

      The Knights Templarstate that although some transitional horns were being moved off the shelf into the retail market place back log etc,talking specifically alto here, as thats our evidence 6ms are out and about in the year 1932.The knights order own several of these dated 1932 serial number taken from steve goodwins site with 6m stamped on them.In our view transitional horns nearly always were horns with the bell keys on either side.But to have the serial numbers corresponding to the year irrespective of official openings is sound evidence, beats any amount of lists.However this debate turns out, it should be considered that there was much ambiguity in the conn manufacturing during the period 1930 to 1934 The knights are suggesting that during this period nothing was set in stone.Now lets hope certain individuals on this site can debate this in a grown up manner without the knights and their order being subjected to all kinds of abuse simply for stating a opinion based on what seams to us strong evidence.(Bird Lives)

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      1. by connsaxman_jim
        (2336 posts)

        19 years ago

        Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

        It should be considered that there was much ambiguity in the Conn manufacturing during the period 1930 to 1934. ABSOLUTELY! As I said, I have seen many surprises. I haven't seen a STAMPED 6M any earlier than a 1934. If you have a 1932 STAMPED "6M", I'd like to see it! I wouldn't say it doesn't exist, because as you said about Conn, nothing was written in stone back then, but what you are saying defies all evidence and information I have seen, which states that these horns were NOT stamped "6M" until 1934! Are you sure that the serial number dates the horn to 1932 and not 34? I can surmise that your horn body was produced in 1932 and stamped with a serial number, sat around the factory for a while, and was assembled and engraved later, and then stamped "6M". This would make sense, but this would certainly be an acception.

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        1. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          Response to connsaxmanjim. The knights agree with this yes we believe also this to be the case but we have searched high and low and as we stated have certainly three that are very smilar We are talking on these ones stamped 6m M series and these are a round the 250000 mark.Now it all depends on who states what list for what year and consistancy of sources. We confess to only checking 3 independant lists which we realise is not conclusive by any means but our order believe these to be 1932.Although we The knights use 10m exclusivly and on these we feel less margin for confusion for some reason.Going back to the 3 Alto s M series they do not have lady face.but they are 6m stamped, 250000 ish period and roled tone holes.After we had believe or not stumbled on one and found it to be so good we searched for others.It must be stated that the Knights do have a lot of contact throughout the world and these were all picked up in Europe. If you can confirm the 250000 as 1932 that clears it up .If you can do further research on the serial numbers and prove otherwise to us then fine we accept it.We feel the most likely outcome is they sat around the factory as you stated but it would be very interesting to us if that could be confirmed or did they market them perhaps for export as early as 1932? (Bird Lives)

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        2. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          The serial number list that I rely on is Dr. Ricks, www.drrick.com/conn.html His list also dates your horn to 1932. Serial numbers 249,230 - 1933 256,501 As I said, I think that either the bodies of these horns were made, and stamped with a serial number and set aside for whatever reason. I can only speculate; maybe they were part of an order that was cancelled. In any case, they probably sat around collecting dust until a plant manager said "Here, we found 30? alto bodies in the warehouse. Let's put them together, stamp them 6M and ship them out!" or the other idea is that these horns WERE built in 1932. stamped 6M and sent to Europe as promotional, prototype models. Again, this is merely speculation, but I would bet that there are only a few of these in existance! Just another example of the kind of surprises you're apt to run into when dealing with Conn.

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        3. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          The knights Templar again agree with the theory that promotional gear sent to europe for promotion testing the water.THe knights can remember in Germany one time blowing the very first proto type 3 series selmer long before they were on the trade stand ready to show to the market field officially.We can remember working out on the horn for a couple of hours at the trade fair and at the time the selmer family inviting us to their factory.They at the time attempting to say it was the new mk6 which they changed tactics a couple of years later.So perhaps this is the best explanation.(Bird Lives)

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        4. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          The knights Templar :Just to clarify before any onslaought of abuse to us takes place.This was a verbal discussion between us and selmer.They were deciding what they were going to call, which is now known as the 3 series.These were the first we tried which were all tenors.The point being that lists can only be a guide, and variations and very slight alterations will obviously appear from time to time So a list cant be stated as fact.(Bird Lives)

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        5. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          One of the problems that I have had with my 10M is that it has always had a tendancy to play sharp. The mouthpiece makes a big difference. An open chamber mouthpiece with a fairly long shank is a must. I've never had another sax where this was as big an issue. My Chu Berry tenor doesn't seem to be effected so much either. When you have the right combination, this sax just sounds amazing, but I am reluctant many times to try new mouthpieces and things because so many I've tried have not worked out like I had hoped or expected. You say the Knights use 10M's exclusively. Have you ever had these problems? Mine is a 1948 model without rolled tone holes.

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        6. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          I've only played a couple other 10M's. One was an earlier model with rolled tone holes and the other model was of mid 50's vintage. I don't remember a problem with either one of them, but then again, I used the same set up I use on mine.

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        7. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          Response to saxmanjim Yes we have experienced all of this.we have had quite a few most have this problem, the onesThe Knights Templar i use dont but the knights are fortunate that we have access to try lots af horns on a regular basis.amzingly enough the best one we have for playing in tune is slighly later and not roled.This is the one used presently on gigs.Its been totally stripped not our doing and not convinced on that one, but what we have done is change all the actions on the horns,ie ring pull stopping the right hand side down and then you have then got to sort out the bis key etc.Its a very fine line to drop it to feel like a mk6 but retain almost full power.We have found it dosent sort out the tuning, but we think like the kingsuper 20 try a load of them about 20% do but its a mystery why. In the past we have put a sleeve inside some super 20 crooks for similar problem.Amazingly you would think to go close lay on 10 ms however we use 9 and 10 vintage link, or again 8* or 9 new link but not New yorks for some reason 8 out of 10 dont lift the sound on 10m the way a new ordinary lay does.With these they have an airy lift can be as good as some vintage and vis versa, if your in a position to try a lot. You mentioned Chu Berry tenors. We are never keen to pull the crooks up on these simply to help feel and position of action .But that aside the knights dont feel comfortable enough at speed on these for hard bop gigs but all things said, believe the sound on these probably for us the greatest of all Saxophone sounds.Sound wise for us sublime. Why do you think some 10ms do and alot dont play in tune and whats your experience on Chu Tenors? (Bird Lives)

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        8. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          The Chi that I have is an early 1929. When I bought the horn, it needed a complete overhaul. I replaced everything; springs, corks, pads... The pads are a white Kangaroo leathere with a metal resonator. They were expensive, but they sound very good and look authentic. The action is still a little clunky but better with all new springs. I even replaced all the rods and screws. I have a 1926 Chu alto, but I didn't put as much work into it as I have the tenor. I've noticed the Chu tenor tends to play a little flat on the high end if you don't tighten up on your embouchre, but the sound is awesome! I like this horn for blues. With a vintage Otto Link Super Tone Master or a Rico Royal Graftonite piece, this tenor just sounds mean and dirty! My 10M is a 1948 non-rolled, and I've been playing this horn since I was 10 years old. I had it professionally relacquered and overhauled 3 years ago, and it really plays nice. I debated about the relacquer, but the guy that I had do it is very maticulous and does exceptional work. I've found the intonation on my 1948 10M to be very good and well centered. with an open chambered mouthpiece, the sax is rght in tune throughout the scale, but finding the right mouthpiece to match this horn can be a hassel. Still, I love the horn! It's my #1 tenor; my Holy grail. I've already said that when I die, I'm taking her with me!

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        9. by TANGO SIX ONE
          (255 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          Response to Conn saxmanjim May be thats the answer with the vintage horns, because of the way things were made way back when,In our view in most cases better made because more hands on individual they all can have small idiocyncracies and as a result of this the key is in trying numerous mouthpieces which work with the horn and the player.sometimes the problem when trying different horns even of the same make, the reed you have been using on your own horn dosent respond on this one using same set up and as a consequence can give you for want of a better word a false reading.We find alot of guys starting out move up through the reed srength in the early years of playing not allowing the horn to do the work.Then they realise a few years down the road, find theirs hundreds of colours to find in the horn.Thats the main reasons why the knights use American horns for us presently this is where its at.We have much playing on the Selmers their great but never thought the colours can be pushed further on any mk6.Possibly for us the BA. It takes years for lots of players to sus this,because they have to have played a awful lot.So for us American horns are for the experienced player.(Bird Lives)

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        10. by BimJeam
          (2 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          saxmanjim: Unlike you I only have one horn. I just traded my B400 TH & C (~1942) for a what I beleive is a 1932 transitional. It has the B/Bb on alternate sides of the bell and is serial 253 XXX. I play in a 50's R&R band and I totally agree with you, an early Conn and a metal link is a great combo for blues/Rock'n'Roll.

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        11. by zootspiker
          (13 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          Any help on the following would be much appreciated. I have a Conn Alto Serial Number: M243934 which I believe put's it at around 1931. There is a Capital A stamped above the serial number and a Capital L beow (Low Pitch?) It has a nickel matte finish ,with the keys , bell brace, and the engraving (a very cool Deco Chevron on the bell) polished. The interior of the bell has the brass exposed. Rolled tone holes on both sides of the bell and an odd tone hole at the bottom of the tube on the left side that closes from E down. Very nice tone even though the pads need to be replaced. It's built like a tank! Can anyone out there confirm date of manufacture and any particular insights into this horn. It belonged to my best friend's father who played the Catskills from the 40's through the 60's.
          Michael Krechevsky
          King Silversonic Tenor

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        12. by Dave Dix
          (421 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          Z OOTSPIKER, Sounds like your conn is a late new wonder series 2. The small key you are referring to is an alternate Eb. To use this key you hold low D and then raise your middle finger of the 3 and this will speak Eb Dave

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        13. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          Hi Zootspiker, What you have is a 1930 Conn (early transitional) alto, which is probably most like the New Wonder Series II or Chu Berry horn. It's not nickel if it's Matte, it's silver, and that's gold wash inside the bell. Key features of the later 6M are the same side B and Bb bell keys, and the underslung octave key on the neck. The New Wonder Series II had the B and Bb keys on opposite sides of the bell and the octave key mounted on top of the neck. Sounds like a really nice horn!

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        14. by zootspiker
          (13 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          Thanks Gents! Appreciate the info and the feedback. Do you know anyone in the San Francisco Bay Area that specilizes in overhauling vintage Conns? And, any thoughts about the pads? I guess they didn't use resonators back then.
          Michael Krechevsky
          King Silversonic Tenor

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        15. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          I would definately put resonators on it. I overhauled a 1926 New Wonder alto and a 1929 tenor, and I ordered the white kangaroo pads with the resonators for them. They're a little pricey, but they are very quiet (the action on those horns seems to be a little clunky) and they sound really good. They really bring out the warm vintage tone of those horns. I'm in Michigan, and unfortunately, I don't really know anyone on the west coast to recommend. Hopefully someone here will. I know a shop here in Michigan that does pretty good work if you don't find any local.

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        16. by blackfrancis
          (396 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          Zootspiker, Try Carole Davis at East Bay Music in Concord. A great tech and a wonderful person. She did my 10M (with plastic resonators) and it was SWEET! Phone number is 925-687-4220. Tell her David from Virginia sent you. Best of luck- it sounds like a nice horn.

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        17. by zootspiker
          (13 posts)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          Thanks very much for your help and advice. (connsaxman as well) It's amazing what a pure tone it has even with the bad pads. (I put a Phil Barone hard rubber New York mpc on it) Cheers, zoot
          Michael Krechevsky
          King Silversonic Tenor

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        18. by houseofben
          (1 post)

          19 years ago

          Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

          Hi zoot, you should check out brassandwoodwind.ca. It's a repair and retail store in Victoria, B.C. I recently bought a great Conn tranny (1934) from them that had been repadded. I used standard pads, but he does have a supply of white kangaroo pads which he has used on a chu berry alto. Really reasonable.

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      2. by Brendantibbs
        (1 post)

        19 years ago

        Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

        HI Mark, I have an Alto Conn number M2521xx with gold lacquer, pearl keys and artist engraving "Made by C G Conn Ltd, Elkhart USA, Sole agents J R Lafleur London 8-10 Denmom street London W1" (low pitch). It has been professionally overhauled and re lacquered. It is in extremely good condition and plays brilliantly and has pads by Don Beeson Gordon stamped on them. There are no repairs or dents. A little mottling on the neck joint area and inside the bell. Oh...it is has an underslung octave button on the neck. B and B flat keys on the left side of belI. I think the case is original (plush with no smell).The only sign of any ware is on the ring for the neck strap. It has been played somewhere down the line! well that is it. A friend is looking to buy this sax and I wondered if someone could advise me on a fair and reasonable price. How does the re lacquering affect the value. Many thanks in advance?

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      3. by MoG
        (1 post)

        18 years ago

        Re: Conn transitional saxophones - defined

        I would really appreciate it if you could answer a question for me. I have a saxophone that has recently come into my posession. I don't play sax, so I am unfamiliar with the instrument. This is a Conn-Selmer 18M. I can't even find it on the Conn-Selmer website. The seriel number is N221903. The only thing I see from the website is that it may have been made in the 1930's. I was told originally it was a Conn-Selmer 6M, but the side of it says 18M. I don't really know anything about saxes, are you familiar with this model?

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