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Forum » Vintage Saxophones » Super 21 by Bleeding_Gums_Murphy (55 posts) 19 years ago Super 21 I was browsing saxpics the other day, and came upon something curious. King introduced an experimental horn in limited quantities called the Super 21 while the Series VI super 20's were still in production. Share your opinions, especially if you've had experience with these horns. Reply To Post [Report Abuse] Report Abuse Web Address * Your Name Your Email Address Comment
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by Bleeding_Gums_Murphy (55 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 here's the link: www.saxpics.com/king/s21.htm Reply To Post by selmer 4evr (309 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 I have seen these photos before ,,,that Selmer did not want to compete with itself is a little far fetched ---one would have to be very naive to believe this since Selmer Paris and Selmer US have always competed-- Selmer US would give their right eye to rival the Paris horn . Why do we think they produced the Omega claiming that it was a remake of the MK VI-- the super 21 looks like a Yani with fancy engraving and probably is,,, it must have been farmed out since only Yani had experience with sterling on saxes Reply To Post by Bleeding_Gums_Murphy (55 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 Excuse me, but what do you call the super 20 silver-sonic??? I'd call it one of the most famous jazz horns ever made. Reply To Post by connsaxman_jim (2336 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 My guess is that UMI and Conn/Selmer had plans to discontinue the King Super 20, and this horn was designed to serve as a replacement. I think that cost and slow sales were probably the reasons why these horns were never produced in any quantities to amount to anything. King saxophones have suffered at the hands of Conn/Selmer, just like every other company that the US. Selmer buys. I wouldn't be too surprised if they didn't just drop the King name altogether. Reply To Post Yahoo! by selmer 4evr (309 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 My comment was not concerning the super 20 it was as a response to the idea that after Selmer US bought the White Co they killed the super 21 project I do not think the 21 project actually existed I belive that it was an Orient horn with the new nomenclature sorry did not mean to offend !!! Reply To Post by selmer 4evr (309 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 My comment was not concerning the super 20 it was as a response to the idea that after Selmer US bought the White Co they killed the super 21 project I do not think the 21 project actually existed I belive that it was an Orient horn with the new nomenclature sorry did not mean to offend !!! Reply To Post by eman19 (131 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 yes but you had responded saying that the only company with experience with sterling was Yani - While the Silversonic also used silver in its design, and has been around for a long time, manufactured by a company other than yani Reply To Post by connsaxman_jim (2336 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 Sterling Silver Saxophones have been in production for years. Most of the earliest American horns were silver plated. The American companies were using Sterling silver more than 70 years before Yani even made their first horn! Reply To Post Yahoo! by selmer 4evr (309 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 again we have a communication gap ,,,, apart from American manuf using Sterling my satement meant to say that of all the companies to farm out to only Yani had the tools,,, know how and Sterling inventory to take on a farmed out project and make a horn overnight . If you purchase a company for the short term the first thing you do is close the plant and farm out,,then milk it to death and shut down. what this does is get you money and at the same time srew over the company you farm out to , when the project dies . Capitalism at its finest !!!!!!! Reply To Post by connsaxman_jim (2336 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 I think that when Selmer bought King, they eliminated the Super 20 and Super 21 due to costs. This is typical of US Selmer. They buy up every company they can, and eliminate their professional series horns. Selmer wants everyone to believe that the ONLY professional model horns are the Selmer Paris horns, and EVERYTHING else is student model! This has been Selmer's game since the early 40's! Even when they were selling horns that were produced by the SAME companies that they were calling "student model." Reply To Post Yahoo! by chiamac (586 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 can someone weigh a "naked" horn? I want to know how much silver would actually be used... and how much of a markup is a pure silver horn? There really isn't much difference working with silver than brass, in fact it moves a little easier. and it's not that expensive, $7.50 per ounce. Which isn't bad when gold is around 475 or something. now someone should make a gold horn... that would be great, maybe this guy could do it! www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/studio-visit-noffke.htm Reply To Post Yahoo! AIM by selmer 4evr (309 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 Connsaxjim we already established that Selmer US actually hates Selmer Paris as a matter of fact Selmer US wishes it could go toe to toe with Selmer Paris worldwide . Did they not produce the Omega ??? No i think that Selmer US buys out everyone to remove competition especially in student horns . Guys ,,,,just talk to any decent instrument shop and they will tell you the money is in student horns for HS and marching bands and so on . Pro horns yield very little profit with a lot of headaches ,,,musicians are nutty individuals . Jerry Danovitch once went to his sax repairman and asked the the hairline leak in the bridgekey of his Yam Alto be PUT BACK since it sounded better before it was fixed . We are a crazy bunch . Anyway with rentals and leases going on pro horns are a necessary evil in the marketplace . It is the student and intermediate horns that interest Selmer US as they also interest Yam Yan and LA Sax and Cannonball and all the Taiwan plants . How about Trevor James a Taiwanese claiminmg to ,be British . Reply To Post by selmer 4evr (309 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 Say Chiamic I heard that someone in Italy is making a Gold Horn Reply To Post by chiamac (586 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 yeah, I belive it. not like it would be hard or anything... just expensive. In fact, (if I were to do this) I would take some sheets of gold to a company and be like "make me a gold horn of this model" and more than likely they would do it. (since if I had the money to buy all that gold, I could also bribe the company... ) Reply To Post Yahoo! AIM by connsaxman_jim (2336 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 I'd make a gold Conn 10M, only with a modified underslung Buescher 400 or King Super 20 style octave mechanism. Reply To Post Yahoo! by chiamac (586 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 what would change with the underslung octive mechanism? (sound wise) Reply To Post Yahoo! AIM by bmcguire (45 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 I could be wrong but I believe were off on the timeline of the Super 21. To my knowledge it was produced in the early 90's. Didn't they stop the Super 20 in the 70's or early 80's? Reply To Post by johnsonfromwisconsin (767 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 The 21 was a last ditch effort by King to compete with Selmer in the professional saxophone market. King made the instrument themselves. It was decided by King that the cost of production and the likelyhood of success against heavily favored Selmer was futile. In the end, King decided to cater to only the student instrument market, thus ending the age of American professional saxophones. Reply To Post by selmer 4evr (309 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 Impossible !!!!King was already loosing money on every Super 20 that it sold . The cost of designing ,,marketing,,,supporting,,,tooling,,,manufacturing ,a new horn when you are already loosing money is insanity .. read some of the history before you make statements that hold no water !!!! Reply To Post by johnsonfromwisconsin (767 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Impossible !!!!King was already loosing money on every Super 20 that it sold . The cost of designing ,,marketing,,,supporting,,,tooling,,,manufacturing ,a new horn when you are already loosing money is insanity .. read some of the history before you make statements that hold no water !!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ you've obviously made no effort to read any history. You are walking a slippery slope of reasoning and lacking facts. The 21 was based on the design of the 20 and would have used the same, or similar tooling. Even if the Super 20 was losing King money(a statement you haven't qualified), the super 21 was indeed made by king. Grow up. Reply To Post by definition (963 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 Actually, he is right for once. King did a Selmer then, tried to cut costs to generate revenue like Selmer did with the VI, and then came out with a new horn when they knew they had messed up, the Super 21, just as Selmer hed the VII Reply To Post Yahoo! AIM by johnsonfromwisconsin (767 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 no. he's incorrect in his thinking that King did not make the 21. There is no evidence to support his claim. That is where he's wrong. His introduction of the claim that the Super20 was allready a money loser is just a red herring. The one has nothing to do with the other Reply To Post by selmer 4evr (309 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 No there is evidence to that as there is to King loosing money. Economic indicators such as removing the pearl touches on the side keys ,,stopping the underslung octave,,the discontinued socket neck all done to reduce cost but if this does not suffice,,, here is a direct quote from saxpics ''King was losing money on every Super 20 produced, and the line was discontinued in 1975. However, there are reliable reports of Super 20 horns with high serial numbers indicating later production dates. I can only assume that these instruments were produced from left over parts inventories''. As for the 21 the keywork suggests a Yani while the rolled tone holes a Keil your pick maybe a hybrid . Think a little twenty years of inactivity 75-95 means most of your highly skilled labour is gone. In order to design and produce good prototypes and restart a production line and distribute a sax in an environment where selmer and now even Yam and Yan have monopolized is unthinkable, let alone trying to get one of the big stars to sign up with you when they are already contracted with one of the big 4 . King would have to affiliate with one of these even if just to get an instant distribution network. Reply To Post by selmer 4evr (309 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 By the way saxpics has a good write up on the 21 Reply To Post by johnsonfromwisconsin (767 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 I do see some similarities, but big differences between the 21 and 880 to suggest it's not a yani stencil. For one, the underslung mechanism is far different. For two, the brace's contact points looks different, as well as the slight difference in contact solder points of the guards. To me, it looks somewhat similar in the bell keys, but different in a lot else, plus saxpics.com images indicates that it is indeed "Made in USA", which means that a certain measure of domestic manufacture has to me met to be marked as such. I own an A880, which IIRC, is the first underslung yani design to be similar enough for comparison. Reply To Post by selmer 4evr (309 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 Made in USA could be assembled and laquered and engraved like in the early markVI days when they were assembled in the us with original French parts. The rolled tone holes would have required machinery and heavy investment ,,for a company that was struggling ,,,come on . Not to mention that rolled toneholes was not a King's signature . The economic realities clearly indicate that the research alone would have taken years . Do you think that King would not have made much hype and caused the whole world to anxiously await such an event . They would have had fanfare ,,,dealers would have wanted to see it ,,,shows organized ,,,musician's feedback etc etc. Hey we live in Marketing heaven . In contrary fashion the sax was introduced overnight surely they had to spin on a dime ,,,how? There is only one answer Watson. Reply To Post by connsaxman_jim (2336 posts) 19 years ago Re: Super 21 Well, it's too bad that the Super 21 never survived, because regardless of who actually made it, I'm sure it was a great horn; probably better than any Selmer on the market today, that's for darn sure! Reply To Post Yahoo!