Saxophone Forum


by gregoryrh
(21 posts)
18 years ago

Embouchure

I see many people discussing embouchure below, especially as it relates to the alltissimo range. I have been playing for about 2 years now, training with a good instructor and am beginning to explore all my likes and dislikes. Jazz is a like. Anyway, I recently added a second teacher to my training just to explore new experiences. He wants me to change my embouchure slightly by moving my mouth in more towards the fulcrum of the mouthpiece. I have always had my mouth placed more outward towards the tip and have a pretty good tone with that setup. This newer teacher (plenty experienced) advices that with an embouchure moved more inward to the fulcrum gives you less of a "bite" of the reed and also gives you a looser embouchure which gives you less opportunity to bite your lower lip when playing over long times. My concern is I have better tone the way I play now. Any thoughts?

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  1. by Sax Mom
    (964 posts)

    18 years ago

    Re: Embouchure

    I've always thought you could get a bigger sound when you have more mouthpiece in the mouth. It can also help with quick tonguing depending on technique. Is your reed too soft that your tone suffers when you aren't using your lip so close to the tip to control it? Just some random thoughts, I don't really know the answers, because I don't know what your embouchure or your tone is like now, but hopefully others will chime in, and we'll both learn something.

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  2. by jamterry
    (573 posts)

    18 years ago

    Re: Embouchure

    Your mouth is the fulcrum in this case. It supplies the capability for the action, which is the vibration of reed. The more mouthpiece you take, the greater the vibration. After you get to a certain point, the vibration will start to decrease. I think your teacher wants you to get a bigger sound. Slightly more mouthpiece should increase your vibration and give you more sound. I don't think you need two private instructors at this point. I hope that you don't get in a conflict of interests. Show your teacher a better tone with YOUR emboucher, and maybe he or she will relent. Hope it works out for you :)

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  3. by gregoryrh
    (21 posts)

    18 years ago

    Re: Embouchure

    Thanks guys! both helpful --although I feel the newer teacher is merely trying to keep me from biting lower lips rather than a bigger sound. I will keep trying.

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  4. by gregoryrh
    (21 posts)

    18 years ago

    Re: Embouchure

    Thanks guys! both helpful --although I feel the newer teacher is merely trying to keep me from biting lower lips rather than a bigger sound. I will keep trying.

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    1. by YanagisawA-901
      (312 posts)

      18 years ago

      Re: Embouchure

      i knew a guy once that used to take so much mouthpiece it looked like he was giving it head.. and i see a lot of ppl that take too little MPC which gives them a disgusting thin tone with a flat emboucher.. i think the most important thing is having a round emboucher 1st.. then worry where u put ur mouth on the piece.. everyone is different but i fear with movign ur mouth too far up the piece u wont have any control over the reed.. the point of having ur mouth on a certain spot is so u can drop the pitch and raise it using ur emboucher in alll fairness, and this may be more or less for some people.. u should be able to drop ur pitch almost one whole step, and bring it up at least a half step just by using ur emboucher.. and taking too much or too little piece will hinder that.. just some thought for ya

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  5. by Radjammin
    (255 posts)

    18 years ago

    Re: Embouchure

    Over the years I have tried different emboucures, I would say whatever you have to do to not bite on the reed is the right one. I play really open, with no lip fold over my lower teeth. Why? 3+ hours in the practice rooms in college=Biten threw my bottem lip. No litterally but it got awefull raw. So after a while I figured the only reason they taught you to do that was so that you didn't have your teeth touching the reed. So if you can resist the earge to not bight threw that tastey piece of Bambo, just lip it. Also I am a tense player. I try not to squeeze but it just happens. The worst thing you can do is have a tense embouchure. It just leads your your pitch going north(sharp) and your sound getting weak. The sounds gota go past the reed, not stop at it. So even if your a tense player, figure out your own way for that tense not to drive your reed crashing into the mouthpiece, closing down your sound and leading to the dreaded squeek, or even worse a little sax sound, like your some kind of Clarient doubler.

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    1. by YanagisawA-901
      (312 posts)

      18 years ago

      Re: Embouchure

      "So after a while I figured the only reason they taught you to do that was so that you didn't have your teeth touching the reed." your wrong the lip allows for even vibration of the reed.. it allows u to bend up and down, control the pitch, use effective vibrato.. u cant do that by just not biting as hard and not using lip.. im not tryna get anyone mad but thats a stupid idea.. your lip is essential.. its like using ur lips on the outside of the mouthpiece of trumpet or trombone.. ksladjfl;asdjf

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      1. by Sax Mom
        (964 posts)

        18 years ago

        Re: Embouchure

        Oops, I believe he IS using his lip, just not his teeth... I can imagine that could work if the muscles in the lower lip are well developed...

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        1. by YanagisawA-901
          (312 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Embouchure

          ooo wow.. your right mama.. damn.. thats actually impressive, i apologize.. that takes some stregnth.. a lil unorthodox tho.. haha cool tho.. thats nuts.. i might just try that one day i imagine that gives a hella dark tone also

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        2. by nichwan
          (1 post)

          18 years ago

          Re: Embouchure

          Hi, Im a tenor sax player, and I have been experimenting with embrichures for a while now, and I have come to believe that different people have a different perspective of what is the "right tone." Biting down with ur teeth on the reed doesn't actually worsen the tone, if you are a good player. Stan Getz played his sax with his actual teeth touching the reed. However, I believe that you shouldn't go overboard with the embichure. Put the mouthpiece in your mouth at a comfortable amount, so not so far that you can't open your mouth any more, but not so close so that your top teeth and bottom lip are almost touching. From there, I recomend trying different shapes in your mouth. Try pouting, so that the bottom lip covers a lot of the reed, (make sure while doing this that you dont touch the reed with your teeth, this could only be done by Getz, and anyone else just squeeks). You can try holding the mouthpiece with the top teeth touching the mpc, while the lip is straight and centered. Then try to move your bottom teeth up and down, this way you'll create darker or brighter sounds. Also, try an otto link metal mpc, that will help you fatten up your tone. (mpc with baffels aren't versitile enough to change your tone, they're pretty much set with one characteristic, and aren't good for developing a good tonal concept). Also, practise with a tuner, long notes, and try to create first off even, centered tone. Also, record yourself. What you sound like from behind is different to what the audience hears. The only way to truly improve your tone is to listen to it from the audiences position. Also, before you play, play you mpc, and try to get as many different pitches or notes out of it as you can ( i can get 5 or 6). This will strenghten your embrichure and increase your tonal concept. I hope what I have said will help. From Nic If you have any imediate questions, you can email me on [email protected]

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        3. by Radjammin
          (255 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Embouchure

          I could say alot of words but why not just listen. Here's a link to my site (remember I am a computer tech)

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        4. by YanagisawA-901
          (312 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Embouchure

          wow, sounds very nice

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        5. by Nichwan_is
          (3 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Embouchure

          Hi... Just a note. A strong embrichure is not just strong lips. Many call a strong embrichure loose lips. However, a strong ombrichure is one which enables you to play altisimo easily and play many multifonics. Also, a stong embrichure will allow you to direct the type of sound you want. Strong embrichure (not strong lips)=versitile tone and better conceptions.

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        6. by YanagisawA-901
          (312 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Embouchure

          yea, a strong emboucher to me is a managable one..

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