Saxophone Forum


by Sonny Swingin
(9 posts)
18 years ago

What makes Jazz, Jazz.

Improvisation is what makes jazz what it is along with interaction between musicians. I just started to get very serious about playing I'm in my Junior year and have been shedding for probably 2 hours a day. I have been working on chords and scales recently. But I was looking over one of sonny rollins classics St. Thomas and see that for instance on a D6 he plays a G# now where near the key signature and wonder, how can he do that and not have it clash. I was also wondering what makes ,for instance, a D6 different from a Dmaj7 to the soloist does it give you more options, with the sixth note sound different. What is a sus chord? What different options do you have when playing a sus chord, 9th, 11th, m6, m9, sus4, pretty much any obscure chord I am wondering about any feed back would be great. Thanks

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  1. by connsaxman_jim
    (2336 posts)

    18 years ago

    Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

    What makes jazz unique is the freedom of interpretation and expression. Sure, jazz consists of many chords and scales, but it's the ability of the player to improvise and play the music the way they feel it that sets jazz apart from most other types of music. Jazz is music for musicians. It's like a language spoken through musical instruments. Sometimes the player has the ability to say things through music that he can't express in words. You have to listen with not only your ears and mind, but your heart as well, and you have to know enough about music to understand what is being said. When you have reached that level of understanding, you can develope an appreciation for jazz

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  2. by peter090
    (155 posts)

    18 years ago

    Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

    This is only a guess but I am assuming that by working on chords and scales you are thinking of finding scales that "work" over specific chords. I'm basing this partly based on the two follow up questions which hint at roughly the same thing. Here ae my thoughts. One explaination is that the G# is in D lydian which is a popular scale choice for D major but this is almost certainly not what is going on. Chords have to be put in context. Sonny Rollins wouldn't likely just be noodling in D lydian. A pro playing a G# over a D6 is probably using it as a chromatic approach or passing tone resolving it to an A either immediately or after another approach tone or using it as part of an alternate progression (substituting Bmin7 E7 A7 D6 for two measures of D for example). Look at the whole phrase and figure out what he is doing not just what note he is playing. There is no significant difference from an improvisors standoint between D6 and DMaj7. In fact you are quite likely to get either or both out of a rhythm section regardless of which is written. This does get to what I mean about context. Many Maj6 chords are actually min7 chords in first inversion. D6 may in fact functionally be a Bmin7. This is often done rather than write Bmin7/D as it is easier to read. Sus chords usually refer to a suspended 4th in place of the 3rd unless otherwise noted so C7sus would be C F G Bb Sus4 is more precise but less common. Bb petatonic is common choice (Bb C D F G Bb) The pentatonic scale over a sus4 is a safe choice but it contains no tensions at all. The safest choice is the blandest choice. As far as upper extensions. All 9ths and 13ths are a major interval above the root unless noted and all 11ths are a perfect interval unless noted. Keep in mind that there are a lot of regional variations and that if you aren't sure find out how the rhythm players are interpreting a symbol. That way you can at least all be wrong together. Here are some common chords. C9=C E G Bb D CMaj7(#11)=C E G B F# Cmin11=C Eb G Bb F Cmin6=C Eb G A Cmin9=C Eb G Bb D CSus4=C F G C7(b9)=C E G Bb Db CMaj9=C E G B D

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    1. by Roccosm
      (113 posts)

      18 years ago

      Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

      Say Peter, I am 57 year's old and just in the past 8 month's have gotten back into Music, I own My own rest and have a combo that play;s here and ofcourse they let me play with them. My point is studing Music in the eatly 60,'s at a local College Jazz was taboo, so through HS and college I had no knowlege of Chord's, I played in the US army 15th Band and went to the Navy Sch. of Music, Chord's are everything in Jazz and as i was reading Your interesting Mail to the Young Lady I was wondering would a d6 be a bd chord in first inversion??? b/dnat/fnat/ anat>??? well I am studing very hard and practice 3 hr. a day trying for get proficent playing solo's,,it is a life long chase.. thank You for reading this and hope to comunicate more with You,..Bye Rocco

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      1. by peter090
        (155 posts)

        18 years ago

        Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

        Congrats on starting up again. A Dmin6 would be D F A B and could function as a B half diminished. If that is what you meant with the lower case d6 the short answer is yes. D6 would be a major triad with an added 6 (D F# A B) Sorry if I misunderstood the question. One thing that makes discussing theory hard is that chord symbols aren't as standardized as they could be. Origiinally I was trying to post a short "how to" for spelling chords from symbols as the post seemed to be asking about that. I'm always a little reluctant to jump in on theory questions as I am not a believer in the chord/scale method of improvisation and so many questions seem to be "what scale would you play over this chord". I believe the correct answer is ALWAYS "What sounds good to me, and you should play what sounds good to YOU." Witholding the technical information doesn't seem like the best way to make that point. Being able to spell the chord allows you to play the progression on a piano and that really helpslearn to hear the changes and understand the voice leading. It also helps me keep sounds organized. A simple example is major/minor. The name works as sort of a mental shorthad for the sound if that makes any sense.

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        1. by Roccosm
          (113 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

          Thank for Your reply Peter, after I wrote to letter I thought about tne lowere case D , but knew You would figure it out amd I also forgot to say the chord is a Half Dim. You are right. I agree what souldnd's good is right. I donnot beleive a person can detect a person whailing on a peice whearther They know Music structure or not,,,some Educator's I have talked to say they Can, but I beleive it to be High Brow . I am into playing very much as a matter of fact i just was playing some of Jamey Aebersold album's in My office. I was at His summere camp in Louieville this summer and had a great time. What do You play? and how deep are You into chord's and theory? I find it now somewhat easier to follow the chord's when I play but it does at time's interrupt My trane of thought's . But I kind of want to know what I am playing and like the Mystery of it. In the army band I was in a friend could absoutley play His tail off when soloing but could not read a note, so We spent time Me showing him how to read and Him showing Me what in the world He was doing? but He was so frustrated because He did not know what he was playing. The great player's , Parker Cannonball , Mile's Coltrane Knew exatley what they were playing at all time's>> interesting...and then there is Earl Garner and I was told that Chet Baker could not read?? I really donnot know if that is right? but who can question their playing???Niot Me or anyone...Peter You have a nice Thanksgiving and take care,,alway's a pleasure to read Your mail...Rocco

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        2. by peter090
          (155 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

          I'm a sax player. I was a music major in college many years ago and have always enjoyed discussing theory with other jazz players both relating to improv and writing/arranging. I've learned a lot of things that were worth persuing in these discussions but I don't think all the study in the world is worth an hour of practice. When I hear something that sounds interesting I try to figure out a way to practice it. I work on it very deliberately in my practice sessions often trying to force it in everywhere possible but in performance I just try to play whatever comes to mind. Things seem to work their way into my playing and keeps it fresh to me. It also keeps the practice sessions interesting. I keep a sort of journal or what I'm working on and when I start feeling bored with practice I just go to a new section and work on that for a few weeks.

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      2. by Radjammin
        (255 posts)

        18 years ago

        Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

        I wasn't really good in Jazz Arranging in college so I might be wrong here. I did take 2 semesters, but didn't get very good grades on my charts. Don't you replace the 1 with 9 in cords so to voice C9 in Jazz it would be D E G Bb. Also wouldn't you replace the 5th with 11,#11,13 so for CMaj7(#11) you would have C E F# B. Our teacher taught for improve an arranging 9s always replace 1 and the 5th is exspendable. All that is important is the 3 and 7, the 3 because it decides if a key is minor or major. Now this all relates to part writing and Sax soloing. I see your cords have 5 notes, maybe there Piano cords. Even if they are, I know that a piano player isn't going to play them this straight up and down. Putting the 5 and the #11 together in the same cord isn't going to sound very good. Were talking a minor second. That's a little too lounge lizard for me.

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        1. by peter090
          (155 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

          I was spelling the chords not giving voicings for them although I should have been more clear about that. Typically bass players will play many of the roots and fifths so piano players tend to avoid them in voicings so things sound cleaner. A common three note voicing for C9 is E Bb D but that doesn't alter the fact that the notes of the chord are C E G Bb D. You probably wouldn't want the C in your CMaj7(#11) for the same reason E F# B would be an ok 3 note voicing. For part writing avoiding 9 with 1, and avoiding 11 or 13 with 5 in the same octave is something people use when harmonizing non-chord tone to avoid seconds. If you are using closed voicings with 4 way harmony you'll see lots of seconds in the inner voices. They often are unavoidable. There is nothing wrong with seconds but if you aren't careful they can obscure the melody. As far as improv I completely disagree. Improv is a melodic line and you don't need to avoid the root or fifth of the chord. Transcribe a solo and I think you'll see as many roots and fifths as ninths and elevenths. In fact in bop the 13th seems a lot more common than the 7th on tonic chords. Saying only the third and seventh matter is saying there is no difference between CMaj7, C#min7, C+Maj7, and C#min7(b5). The piano might not voice all the chord tones but they all matter and you can be sure that if you are arranging SOMEBODY is going to have the root. I only gave the examples to clarify the rules I'd given for spelling chords, they weren't intended as voicings. As far as voicing for a CMaj7(#11) You can avoid the minor second by putting the #11 in another octave (c in bass voice from bottom to top) E G B F# but you don't need to. Closed voicings have a lot more grind but I wouldn't call them lounge lizard. Sorry for ANOTHER long post...

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          1. by Radjammin
            (255 posts)

            18 years ago

            Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

            Step 1: Remember your reader. Your readers are Sax players. Why not stick to what is usefull to them. How are 5 voice cords going to help a soloist ? Why not suggest, as I did what an arranger would do with a measure and show how it could be incorporated into your solos. You said 5ths are fine, ya they are fine unless the agument of a cord suggest that they be replaced. Playing the 5th on a #11 cord would suggest to me a beginner. Then you go on to discuss the 1, or tonic. As a jazz player I was allways taught to stay away from this unless I am comming to an ending. For other readers, the 1 is not where you want to start out at, but where you want to finish. Playing the 1 leads nowhere. Jazz music is all about leading you somewhere. Take the ii V turn. What's it do? Leads you to 1. So to suggest that beginners just keep shouting 1 1 1 1 on every cord is not very good leadership. Try replacing it with 9 or the second note of a cord. Because the bass player is already playing the 1 it creates suspension. What's suspension do? Creates tention that needs to be resolved. Is tension good for your solo? Heck ya! Its your job to tranverse the harmonic tensions and return your listen gently back to 1. If you start at 1, your voyage is already finished.

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          2. by peter090
            (155 posts)

            18 years ago

            Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

            I'll give this one more shot. What I gave were not voicings they were chord spellings. I thought that would be helpful if the person asking about 9ths and Sus chords didn't know how to interpret chord symbols. I think the most fundamental piece of information is "What does the symbol mean". Voicing the chords is a completely different issue but the voicing changes the quality of the sound not the function of the chord. I think your description of tension and release is a good and I agree that replacing 1 with 9 is one way to create tension but there are many other ways as well. What I disagree with most is the idea that roots and fifths must be avoided or replaced in an improvised line. That is just plain wrong. Two items for you to ponder... If there is no fifth in a CMaj7(#11) then what is a CMaj7(b5)? If minor seconds must be avoided, when confronted with Cmin9 do you avoid the ninth or the third? I'm trying hard to keep my posts from being argumentative but you really are stretching to find anything I've said that suggests shouting roots on each chord change. I tried to answer the questions suggested by your posts but I really don't much care for being misquoted and won't bother in the future if you continue to try to pick fights.

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        2. by jamterry
          (573 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

          Work on your technique !!!!! Hammer your licks to the ground. Don't worry about Sonny , and just play what you feel. :) Theory is fine, but if you can't lay it down it's useless.

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          1. by kneejerk52
            (397 posts)

            18 years ago

            Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

            jam im with you forget all the blah, blah, and just play, if its hot it's hot if it's not, well you will know it, and if you don't, playing all the scales in the world will not help you, you will just sound like a machine with no feeling. don't get me wrong it's good practice but in all things you need balance.

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            1. by peter090
              (155 posts)

              18 years ago

              Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

              Don't worry about Sonny? This kid has made one of the most important discoveries in music and you tell him to ignore it and "play what he feels". Here's a clue kid, theory doesn't help you play it helps you learn to HEAR! You've found a note that doesn't "make sense". Learn to hear and understand it. Then you will be able to use what you've learned to create not just regurgitate. Playing jazz is hard work. Doing it well takes years of physical and mental work. Doing it brilliantly takes that and buckets full of talent most of us simply don't have. As far as technical study. Make your taste limit your technique not your limits in technique limit your music. The temptation to show off all you can do is great. Playing only what is musical is far more impressive. If you are looking for a shortcut to success I heartily reccomend learning about five licks from Charlie Parker and practicing them in the three or four most common keys. That should get your through most tunes. Pay special attention to what chord he plays the lick over and you'll be in the top twenty five percent of the class. Just fill in a blues scale whenever you are unsure of what to play, that always sounds "soulful" when mixed with bop.

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              1. by peter090
                (155 posts)

                18 years ago

                Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

                I should probably add that the last paragraph is sarcastic (though I suspect it would fool a good many people)

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            2. by jamterry
              (573 posts)

              18 years ago

              Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

              There are no shortcuts to success. I was playing blues at 11. I learned those scales by ear. I learned to play with my Coltrane records by ear. In those days there was no place to get transcriptions. I didn't know what chords he played over, but I nailed the licks. From those Coltrane records I also learned McCoy Tyner's piano licks. I didn't know what chords i was playing. I Bought Sonny Rollins' Alphie and East Broadway Rundown, and learned those licks. I really didn't know about Charlie parker until I jammed with Sonny Stitt. Sonny Stitt and Gene Ammons hipped me to bop. My biggest influence was Coltrane. Don't worry too much about the theory. It's fun to play jazz!!!! Don't make it too mental. Throw your head back and let it fly. Keep up with your theory too. Because you want some guidelines. I break jazz improvisation down to vertical and linear improvisation. You need to spell chords, play scales, and modes. You need to hammer your technique to the ground !!!! Learn diatonic modes, blues scales and traditional scales (major. natural minor. harmonic minor. melodic minor). diminish runs. Don't think so much about it.

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              1. by peter090
                (155 posts)

                18 years ago

                Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

                That is the whole point. You learn jazz and play jazz with your ears. It is an Aural art from. For theory to be of ANY use has to help you HEAR not help you play, The best transcriptions are the ones you do yourself, agreed. All I am saying is that you can learn a lot from why something works rather than just copping all the licks you think sound good. It is still fun to play jazz and I still just shut my eyes and let it rip BUT I can make far more efficient use of my practice time by not wasting time practicing things that don't work.

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                1. by kneejerk52
                  (397 posts)

                  18 years ago

                  Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

                  i like to hear people discuss, agree dissagre and explain without anger in the words, great!! i like what you both said and it's well taken thanks for great replys.

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                  1. by jamterry
                    (573 posts)

                    18 years ago

                    Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

                    I was just relating how i learned to hone my licks. I learned those licks 40 years ago. Now I must practice what people want me to do on their tunes in the studio. It would be senseless to practice anything that doesn't work. It could get me fired. :( Have you heard the theme song from the South Park TV show? It's unorthodox, but that's they way the composer wanted it. Whatever get's you through the night works. Practice On :)

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                  2. by connsaxman_jim
                    (2336 posts)

                    18 years ago

                    Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

                    Sure, theory is important. Knowing scales is VERY important, but I believe that listening is the MOST important! With jazz, you really need to listen and improvise; that's what makes jazz unique. Listen to guys like Sonny, Bird, Coltrane, and others. Listen to what the other musicians in the band are playing. Too many musicians like to do their own thing and don't often listen to what the rest of the band is playing. Jazz offers more freedom of interpretation than classical, or most types of music. I think I used this example before, but think of music as a big dog. Classical music is like a dog on a short chain. The musician reads music and plays it as it is written. You're hearing what the composer wanted to say, not the musician playing the music. Jazz is like a dog with a big fenced in yard. The musician has more freedom to play his or her interpretation of the music; adlib and improvise, and play the solo the way he or she wants it to sound. The fence, however, represents the boundaries that even a jazz musician should not cross. You can't get too abstract, or it's no longer music; just noise! With jazz, you hear the musician's interpretation of the music. But, in order to truely understand what they are saying, you need to understand theory. As I said, jazz is like a language spoken through musical instruments. You have to understand that language. Theory and scales with help teach you that language. In the meantime, enjoy listening to many different players and trying to get a feel for their technique and style. Copy what they are playing to the best of your ability; then change it slightly and make it your own. As you learn the theory, those things that you heard and did not understand will make sense to you. The best way to learn a new language is to listen to those who speak it; so listen and enjoy! Jim

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                  3. by peter090
                    (155 posts)

                    18 years ago

                    Re: What makes Jazz, Jazz.

                    Well said. Sometimes a REALLY big dog like a Coltrane or Parker jumps over the fence and then we all get a bigger yard to play in.

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