Saxophone Forum


by gregoryrh
(21 posts)
18 years ago

Use of tongue in jazz

I started saxophone lessons about two years ago. While I supposedly properly learned with my first teacher to use my tongue when starting a note, my new teacher today indicated that for jazz playing I am not properly using my tongue in attacking notes. He indicated (and I have heard this before) that the tip of the tongue needs to touch the tip of the reed and you should feel the vibration, kind of like a tickling of the tongue. My experiences have always had me touching the reed further back on my tongue...and I rarely feel the vibration of the reed to the degree that many say they do. Do I have a conflict between teachers? Or is there room for differences here? Or is the use of the tongue different in jazz than other types of music?

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  1. by birdwho
    (15 posts)

    18 years ago

    Re: Use of tongue in jazz

    Honestly, as long as you can articulate notes accurately its more whatever works for you. Getting the notes to speak when you want it to is all that really matters, so just practice all different ways to find whats comfortable for you, but don't take the easy way out. Listen to your teachers and practice hard at what they tell you, because if it doesnt feel right at first doesnt mean you shouldnt try to get used to it.

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  2. by knorter
    (205 posts)

    18 years ago

    Re: Use of tongue in jazz

    Learning to tongue in different ways will help you in your musical experiences. When you say "tip of your tongue" do you literally curve it upwards to touch the tip or are we talking about the top side of the tip. I use the part that touches the roof of your mouth when you pronouce "T" or "ta" It sounds like the technique that your new teacher is showing you is "ghosting". You must still use the first way when playing in a jazz ensemble. It is the best way to cleanly toungue notes especially all of the capped, short accents in a big band setting. The "ghosting" technique is a way that some people learned how to articulate swing eighths. I learned it early on in my studies and use it occasionally but really haven't found a need for it often. It's more of an effect when you want to "ghost" or partially hide the sound of a note. Some also call it "muffle tonguing". It can aid in eighth note swing because you can ghost all of the downbeat eighth notes in a running line of eighth notes and let the upbeats sound clear which gives a swing feel. Or you can hide certain pickup notes in a line and then really accent the note that the line ends or holds on. Bird did this often. The swing feel is also achieved by simply tongue accenting eighth note upbeats and slurring them into downbeat to de-emphasize them downbeats. This gives a "doo-bah, doo-bah" swing feeling to swung eighth notes. This method is much more accurate than teaching young players to think of the swung eighth notes as two triplet eighth notes tied together followed by a third triplet eighth which is tongued. The triplet method is only an accurate model in very slow swing tempos. It only makes a player sound ricky-ticky at medium or fast tempos. A lot goes into articulation in jazz. Most players that I work with use the first method of tonguing that I described. The second way is valid in a few situations so you should definitely add it to your arsenal. Bird tongued like this a lot. I think listening to the differences between him and Sonny Stitt could show you the clarity difference between regular and "ghost" tonguing. Both have their place musically but the first method is adaptable to more situations. Good Luck, Kristy

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    1. by jamterry
      (573 posts)

      18 years ago

      Re: Use of tongue in jazz

      test

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      1. by gregoryrh
        (21 posts)

        18 years ago

        Re: Use of tongue in jazz

        Thanks a lot. I had no idea there was that much more to the use of tongue. Having read Larry Teal's book on the 'Art of Saxophone Playing' I thought that was all there was. Obviously, I have a lifetime of learning still ahead.

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    2. by jamterry
      (573 posts)

      18 years ago

      Re: Use of tongue in jazz

      I hope this post works. I wrote earlier,and they threw me outta the car. I sense that you trying to find a teacher that will turn you into a jazz monster. I hope that you will practice hard, learn these techniques, and don't expect overnight success. Learn both tonguing techniques. and don't do too much teacher hopping. Kristy, Sonny Stitt and Gene Ammons were my friends. Those guys had some real duels on tenor. I mentioned before about conflict of interests. Don't get on the wrong side of a teacher. Use what works for you, because we are all different. Best of luck to you :) Terry

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      1. by CountSpatula
        (602 posts)

        18 years ago

        Re: Use of tongue in jazz

        using the tip of your tongue is for soft stuff, anchor tonguing (if i spelled that right) using the middle of your tongue can help get a fatter sound for jazz but its harder to tongue fast. I had this problem when i started but my private lesson teacher helped me.

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      2. by EL Seano
        (255 posts)

        18 years ago

        Re: Use of tongue in jazz

        Terry, When you say "Sonny Stitt and Gene Ammons were my friends", Do you mean that you had the honour of knowing them personally?

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        1. by jamterry
          (573 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Use of tongue in jazz

          test

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          1. by jamterry
            (573 posts)

            18 years ago

            Re: Use of tongue in jazz

            Hey Sean, Yeah, I did know those guys, and it happened by chance. I was coming from LA to Chicago and I had my horns with me. When I got in a Taxi in Chicago, the driver knew right away that I had saxophones. He if asked me if I wanted to meet Gene Ammons. I went to a club on the southside called the Apartment to see Gene, or Jug, as he was called play. Sonny Stitt showed up and they had a duel of the tenors. Later on I met them, and they invited me to jam. I learned so much from those guys. I miss those days. :( I owe everything to that taxi driver, and it was the chance of a life for and up and coming player. Practice hard Sean!!!! Terry

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          2. by EL Seano
            (255 posts)

            18 years ago

            Re: Use of tongue in jazz

            You are one lucky guy. I got a tenor battle myself next tuesday, should be fun! :-)

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          3. by jamterry
            (573 posts)

            18 years ago

            Re: Use of tongue in jazz

            Good Luck Sean!!!! Go get 'em

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          4. by ebert
            (18 posts)

            18 years ago

            Re: Use of tongue in jazz

            Just remember that when starting the note with your tongue, you don't want to hear it on the attack, no matter what pitch it is. A good way to practice this is to just start the note with an air attack, then add the tongue when you can air attack with a solid sound on the beginning of the note. If you can already do this solidy, ignore this post :)

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