Saxophone Forum


by Radjammin
(255 posts)
18 years ago

Oleo Standard, participate in SOTW.

Hey I been writing here for a few months now. I wondered over ot Sax On the Web and decided to do the Monthly playoff. Here's my attempt at Oleo www.onlinegameaccess.com/OleoHack.mp3 I think I might start doing it monthly. Nice to practice again. I have never heard many of you guys play before. Maybe you can do it to. Just to sound off. Radjammin. Of course chim in with thoughts!

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  1. by MarkLavelle
    (300 posts)

    18 years ago

    Re: Oleo Standard, participate in SOTW.

    Not too shabby, but what is this 'practice' you speak of? ;-) I've got a ways to go before trying that sort of thing (I'm really a rhythm guitar player), but I like the general idea of posting playing examples. Care to share any recording tips, especially as regards mic type and positioning?

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    1. by golferguy675
      (600 posts)

      18 years ago

      Re: Oleo Standard, participate in SOTW.

      I really like your swing on the solo. It seemed like it was a little straight on the head, then you swung really hard when you started soloing. One constructive criticism I could offer is to do a little more of something I heard after the bridge of the solo. You played around a little more with the rythms. I noticed you played a lot of 8th note lines, and while they sounded great, and had variety, I like it when you mixed it up a threw in a couple offbeat longer note values. Maybe also try some triplets or some sixteenth note pickups into an 8th note line. For me, your note choice was pretty sound, as well as your rythm, but you could mix the rythm up a little more. Great recording.

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  2. by connsaxman_jim
    (2336 posts)

    18 years ago

    Re: Oleo Standard, participate in SOTW.

    I listened to the first two and overall, I didn't think they were too bad at all. How long have you been playing? I don't want to say anything negative to discourage you. It felt as if you were struggeling with some scales, maybe holding back a little. Some of the changes were not as smooth as they could have been, but overall....GOOD JOB!

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  3. by Radjammin
    (255 posts)

    18 years ago

    Re: Oleo Standard, participate in SOTW.

    Hey Thanks guys for the replies. You would be supprised how much stuff like this helps. For people with questions on how to do this I learned it over at Saxontheweb.net Get Band in a Box from www.pgmusic.com. You can use the demo, just record with another recording software, like audacity (free audio editor online), or you can buy Band in a box (88 bucks but great buy!) You can find the charts online for free. just look for BIAB songs. Then get your record on. I use a nice Samson mic C01U Usb mic but the standard belkin mics work fine. Just trial and error. I had already got the same comments over on SOTW but I wanted to premote the idea of us starting to record also. I will work on breaking it up a little, and I really do want to add more tripet ideas, I just don't want them to sound corny. Maybe we can just do the same chart here each month. I really think its a good idea to get us all playing instead of allways talking about sax playing!! Lets get our community rockin and rollin!

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    1. by golferguy675
      (600 posts)

      18 years ago

      Re: Oleo Standard, participate in SOTW.

      Yeah, I've got Band In the Box on my PC, but it's got an internal mic, which just sounds pitiful, so I haven't recorded much. Yeah, if you use triplets to much or forcefully they can sound a little hokey, but just listen to how some of the great bop players used them. I'd say the most common triplet lick would be starting on the up beat and playing eigth triplet going up and leading into an eigth note line. So an example: G ACE G F# F E D C# C G F# But like I said, you've pretty much got the notes down, and I can hear some nice resolutions in there, so I'm sure you could put that into a given situation fairly easily.

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  4. by Seano
    (132 posts)

    18 years ago

    Re: Oleo Standard, participate in SOTW.

    Hey Rad, Well done on the recording. Your solo was well constructed and it is obvious that you've been listening and transcribing. Try to match the accents that Miles places on the head of the original recording. I noticed a few notes were played long on the head when they are played shorter on the recording. This is just a matter of taste, and I thought I'd point it out. Another thing I noticed is that you tend to accent some of the onbeat quavers, notable in bars 11-12 of the solo. This can be helpful at fast tempos, but at medium tempos it kills the swing. I don't know if it was just the microphone, but during the solo some of the notes were very faint, a sudden drop from your previous dynamic, but coming back up. I picked this up in bar 7 of your solo chorus. Try to always play your notes as if they were the last ones you were ever going to play. Those six bars were fantastic, but they were let down by the sound's sudden disappearance. You picked yourself up well at the next 8 with a nicely flowing phrase. Always try maintain a strong sound like in the other parts of the tune. The lines and phrases you play are great, they flow very nicely. You clearly know your rhythm changes well. I know artificial rhythm sections are difficult to work with due to lack of communication, but I liked how you still made the most of it. May I ask who you listen to? I can hear Bird has had his touch on you :-) I hope what I've has helped you. If you want to check out a really cool version of this tune, try to look for Bob Berg's version. His solo is absolutely amazing on that. Sean

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    1. by Radjammin
      (255 posts)

      18 years ago

      Re: Oleo Standard, participate in SOTW.

      Well thanks for the feedback, best I got so far. Can you relate them by time on the recording? It's easier to find them. Transcribe? I hate doing that. First I really need to listen to that recording, I haven't. I tend to get turned off by Miles. I don't really enjoy his playing style. I am much more up front, probaby my personally comming out in my soloing taste. Yep, I like the Bird. Playing the Omni Book over and over. I used a couple of Bird turns in there. Not by program, just out of habit. I haven't done any transcribing for this chart but I have been working on the changes with the Jazz Theory Book, by Mark Levine. I took Jazz Improve in college but it's really taught at the wrong time for me, most of it went over my head. I think they should have taught it after Jazz Arranging+ the arranging teacher was much better. Other 2 big influences on me were Vince, a grad student in college that I use to listen to all the time in concerts and in the practice rooms. His major influance was Cannonball so I also listened to him. But you know his tone is probaby my bigest influance other then Bird. He was just amazying to listen to. Best sax player I have ever heard in person. I have actually been tring to find if he has cut any Records since he left college but I can't find any. If you know him you would remember. He is quite short, about 5 feet tall. The low stuff is me, I tend to have to break all my classical habits. When I get nervous(recoring playing live) my classical training tends to creep up. Cresendoing assending lines and not poping the ends of notes. The only time that they don't is when I take the time to think about it before hand. Also those low sections were less confident. All things I need to work on. Again thanks for the feedback. But don't forget, I posted so that I could modivate some of you guys to chime in with your recordings. Lets try to do the same charts like they do on SOTW. It's a really fun community event! Bring your Game Face!

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      1. by chiamac
        (586 posts)

        18 years ago

        Re: Oleo Standard, participate in SOTW.

        I love the name you have on the mp3. I'll take a listen later tonight when I'm at home!

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        1. by Seano
          (132 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Oleo Standard, participate in SOTW.

          I've got a small concert at my university tommorow, I'll try to get it recorded so I can post it here. Sean

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        2. by knorter
          (205 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Oleo Standard, participate in SOTW.

          Rad, Good start. I've noticed that you have a tendency to accent 1 and 3 which makes the solo not swing very hard. You should try to play rhythms that start on the upbeats. Syncopated rhythms are key. If you analyzed solos of Cannonball, Bird etc... you'll see that most of their lines start as eighth note pickups. You seem to start a line on the downbeat of one and three and you stress those beats which takes away from the swing. I am a total computer hack but if you tell me how to record something I will do a post so you can hear what I'm talking about. Kristy

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        3. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Oleo Standard, participate in SOTW.

          that's a pretty fun program (I just got it today... ) but yeah, while listening to your recording, it seems your rushed and tense. but I'm not an expert.

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        4. by Radjammin
          (255 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Oleo Standard, participate in SOTW.

          Kristy, Read my first follow up post. I tell you where to get the software and you will need a computer mic, either regular analog one like the one that comes with your computer or get a usb mic. Thanks everyone for the feedback, just don't forget the part about you recording yourself and lets get some thing regular going.

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        5. by Radjammin
          (255 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Oleo Standard, participate in SOTW.

          Here's another one I just recorded yesterday. Again all welcome to post feedback or your own recordings! www.vintagehoron.com/iremyou_Render.mp3

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        6. by Radjammin
          (255 posts)

          18 years ago

          EDIT: Wrong Address

          Ops, typo. www.vintagehorn.com/iremyou_Render.mp3

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        7. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: EDIT: Wrong Address

          I'm gonna try and record something later today... it won't be great, but I'll give it a shot!

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        8. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: EDIT: Wrong Address

          so yeah I was all set on recording someting, I got everything setup and ready... then the cork on the neck decides it's the right time to fall off. so that needs to get replaced, then I'll be ready to record. in the mean time, it's fun to play the music though headphones, then listen to the mic through the same phones. Makes things easier!

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        9. by Radjammin
          (255 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: EDIT: Wrong Address

          I recorded another, www.vintagehorn.com/autumnleaves_Duo.mp3 I played the Sax and Trumpet on this recording.

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        10. by Seano
          (132 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: EDIT: Wrong Address

          The quality of the recording was much better this time, you've got quite a nice tone.

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        11. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: EDIT: Wrong Address

          meh... honestly... it seemed to drag, out of tune, sloppy, and it hurt my ears to listen to. (and I'm on my cheap pair of headphones, I don't want to think about using my studio ones) just being honest, Andy

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        12. by knorter
          (205 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: EDIT: Wrong Address

          Rad- You really need to spend more time working on playing changes. In I Remember You and Autumn Leaves there were a ton of wrong notes. You also never locked into the time. On rhythm changes you did much better because you could just play in the key of G. I would really recommend playing solos using only chord tones for awhile. I finally figured out the mic and audacity thing--now what? What web site can I join in order to post my mp3 file? I told you guys I'm a computer novice. Kristy

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        13. by knorter
          (205 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: EDIT: Wrong Address

          Ok thanks to Andy I am up and running. Here's a link to Andy's web page. Click on rhythm changes and autumn leaves. Those were recorded today with a little help from some Aebersold play-alongs. Thanks again Andy. I think we have to be willing to put ourselves out there for criticism if were going to keep putting our opinions out there. Start recording! www.andrewthomasdesigns.com/music/AutumnLeaves.mp3 www.andrewthomasdesigns.com/music/Rhythmchanges.mp3 Kristy

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        14. by golferguy675
          (600 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: EDIT: Wrong Address

          Kristy: I only had time to listen to Autumn Leaves, but I'll throw in my 2 cents, even though that's a lot better than I could do ; ) Have you recently changed mps? Your tone sounds darker than the last time I heard you(though I guess that was a while ago). You have a lot of creativity. I didn't count the choruses, but you improvised for the better part of 2 and half minutes, and continued to come up with different melodic lines, and they were all interesting to listen to. That can be hard sometimes with simpler changes. You mix your rythm up very well, and use plenty of syncopation, which is nice to listen to. I picked up on one tendencies of yours, because I do the same thing. On some of the longer be-bop/chromatic type lines, you tend to end the same way sometimes. I noticed a lot of A-G. It's odd, because all of your looser more melodic lines always resolve differently and into a nice chord tone. I do the same thing sometimes with F#-D or A-G. Like I said, I offer this input humbly, because you're a better player than me. I think this coming week or the following I'm going to splurge and buy a nice external PC mic, any suggestions as to what I should buy?

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        15. by Sax Mom
          (964 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: EDIT: Wrong Address

          Well, I listened. Kristy's post and Andy's post led me to believe Rad's recording would be terrible. Though I did notice a few klinkers, I would not have been as negative. I rather enjoyed the recording. I then listed to Andy's recordings. Since the style was so very different, they were incomparable. Yes, the latest showed a more developed style, and I did like it, but it seemed almost too busy. Much is a question of style--and styles differ.

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        16. by knorter
          (205 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: EDIT: Wrong Address

          saxmom--those recordings on Andy's page are of Kristy (knorter) not Andy. I corrected the address in my first post and removed Andy's to avoid further confusion. Thanks

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        17. by Radjammin
          (255 posts)

          18 years ago

          Recording posting,

          Wow, people talking on thread I wanted them to! Yay!!!! And even participating!! even better. Ok about the mic question, I already mentioned I use the Samson USB mic. I got it at Sam Ash and they sell the same one on WWBW.com It's 80 bucks but I can tell you it is quite nice, I would say the same quality as a mic you would use at a gig. The reason the second recording is much louder is I used audacity to do the actual recordings and I did better then Band in a Box directly. Sad thing is I didn't get the benifit of the highlighted cords like the first one. Kinda like a bouncing ball telling me which cord I was on. Ok ok I never said I was great. I just wanted to start people doing recordings so we could be a proactive site other then us all just siting around typing comments to each other when in fact we are all saxophonist!!! I am just glad people are recording. Concerning mp3 posting. Well we have 2 options, there are sites out there that you can post them on, or if You want I can add a recording page to my web site, vintagehorn.com for us to post the recordings. Is there interest for this?

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        18. by Radjammin
          (255 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          Now as a poster to my music, I agree I wish I could run like knorter( I prefer login names to keep things straight) but directed to the bad to the ears, to my ears there is really only 2 bad parts, 2 times where there is a turn in the :29 and at :44, both of them are mistakes and I will try to do better. I was not only messy there, I also acidently used different lead sheets, ops. The second one I tried to recover from and caused the lag. Also I was tring to set a tempo where I could solo on, so the head is a bit slow. There are mistakes in the solo, but none I would consider bad on the ears. Also I am not a professional, though I do have a BA in music. My job is computers, and I practice when I can. Soloing is skill that must be kept up, something I am working on with the help of this site and through BIAB praticting. Recently with BIAB have I just starting working with renewed effort. I can't allways make the Jam Sessions with a kid,house,and full time job. But with BIAB the rhthm section can come to you. I suggest anyone else in situation to consider using BIAB. Ambersold is nice, but it's only certain tunes at an exact tempo. Yes you can use other software to alter the tempo, but I still suggest BIAB over it. For my own personal benift, anything to exactly work on? For Autumn Leaves I could tell it's a Melodic Minor Song, but what scale is it? I noticed after I starting noticing that all the cords had the same notes in it. For rhthm Changes, or speicifally Oleo Yes I do work alot in G but I am catching the section in F with the Bb and the sections in A and E with the G# and C#. All these cord references are speicifc to Eb Alto. Overall thanks for the Musical feedback. All things I can take in and work on. I am tellin anyone not doing the posting thing, it really works!!

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        19. by Radjammin
          (255 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          Edit: I am tellin anyone not doing the posting thing, it really works!! should be: I am telling anyong not doing the BIAB thing, it really works!!! I am at work so doing this in between work.

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        20. by knorter
          (205 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          Rad, I think this a great idea. I think posting our playing will help us all get good feedback. Kudos to you for putting yourself in the hot seat. There are not many others on this site who have done so. (hint, hint)Also, recording yourself and listening is always a good idea to hear your actual progress. I used a very low tech method. I used my minidisc mic Sony ECM-MS907. Plugged into my computer. Downloaded Audacity for free, recorded myself with a boombox next to the mic and then exported the file as an MP3 which I had to send to Andy to post for me. Golfer-I am using a different piece. I am in the process of working out an endorsement with Vandoren. I have been playing the V16 on alto for about 6 months. Darker but more consistent throughout the horn. My low tech recording might not be the best representation of my sound but it's closer than I thought it would be. Kristy

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        21. by knorter
          (205 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          Rad, I should be more specific about the wrong note comments. The obvious wrong notes seem to only occur at the ends of your phrases when you kind of trickle out of a phrase, I think you're probably think about the next chord already. The other stuff is more detailed. In the bebop tradition the chromatic passing tone is used to keep chord tones on downbeats while enabling the soloist to play running eighth note lines. In your solos I hear you wanting to play eighth note lines and using chromaticism but it puts your chord tones off of downbeats and sometimes the chromatic notes completely clash with the chord. A good example of this the first A section of your second chorus of alto on Autumn leaves. The other part I will mention about playing changes is that a good solo enables an educated listener to hear the chord progression. In other words if were listening to just the alto without a rhythm section I should be able to transcribe the chord progression. When you just play in a key area without outlining the chord tones it is hard for the listener to hear the progression. I really think you are off to a good start I didn't mean to be harsh. I would still recommend trying to solo using chord tones and I would use some guide tone studies on all of these tunes. This will give your lines more grounding in the harmony of the chords like a composed piece would have. Improv is spontaneous composition but it still needs to follow the rules of harmonic resolution. Kristy

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        22. by Radjammin
          (255 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          Hey Knorter, What are you doing at 1:02 on your rhythm changes recording? I think you are over ADim in at that measure. Just wondering.

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        23. by knorter
          (205 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          Rad, It's over the Amin D7. I'm playing an idea using the diminished wholetone scale. An easier way to think of that is to play a simple idea in Eb min over a D7 chord. Diminished wholetone is D Eb F F# G# A# C D Enharmonically that gives you the notes of Eb minor. I think I played descending Bb Gb F Eb D. I set it up by doing a halfstep enclosure of B to A to Bb. Gives it a halfstep slip sound. I took this from a Kenny Garrett solo I transcribed. I'm happy to pass it on--thanks for asking. Kristy

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        24. by Radjammin
          (255 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          after listening to it 3 times I finally caught it. It's such a good leadin. It makes it sound like the run doesn't end till 1:06. www.vintagehorn.com/Knorterlick.mp3

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        25. by knorter
          (205 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          Rad, I've been thinking not only should there be a weekly post but maybe a new tune every few weeks so we all have something to practice and work on. What do you think? Kristy

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        26. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          that'd be a good idea...

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        27. by Radjammin
          (255 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          Well Right now are participation number=2. Maybe we can increase the number of tunes per month once we get some more participation. I already spent a few mins setting up my web site to host Recordings, Lets see if anyone uses it. Even if they don't use it I might still capture the recordings and review them there so we can all monitor our progress. Everthing is driven by participation. We need to get that up first before we change the rules. If you want to just work on something different, I am working on "Song for my Father" at home. RadJammin

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        28. by golferguy675
          (600 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          Kristy, I like the alt scale lick. That's really quick thinking putting the lick into the right key while you're passing through rythm changes. I find a lot of Garret's stuff to be pretty tough transcription material because of his erratic rythmic style, but when you can find one that would sound right with your own style, you can't beat his ideas.

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        29. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          Before I start... I never try to be mean and sometimes I can come off as harsh. I blame this on working in a phone service job 8 hours a day. I am, in fact, a very nice person, in person.=) "I used a very low tech method. I used my minidisc mic Sony ECM-MS907. Plugged into my computer. Downloaded Audacity for free, recorded myself with a boombox next to the mic and then exported the file as an MP3 which I had to send to Andy to post for me." Let me just touch on a few recording hints here, (I'm not a pro, but I know enough to take a educated crack at this) 1) a mic... ANYTHING can and will work for this. You can have the left or right speaker of a earphone as a mic if it's plugged into the mic port, however nice mics produce a nice sound. If you have meters, (the green to red lines on a stereo that move up and down) you want the mic to just peak into the reds. NOT over the reds, and NEVER all in the reds - that creates clipping and distortion, both of which are bad. Think of it this way... the green to red are the size of sheet of paper you have to draw something, you want to use the whole sheet but not go over, you also don't want to use to little of the sheet... Another mic hint... be selfish, if you can make your sound better by messing with the mids/highs/lows then DO IT! make the recording sound good to your ears! (I'm sure Audacity can do this). 2) how to record... I haven't used BIAB for recording, bbut here are a few suggestions. If you can adjust the levels so you're using the whole range/sheet (Like I talked about before) if it's too low (see Kristy's mp3's) you will need to bump that up. There "should" be a function called NORMALIZE (but spelled right) that will do this. It makes it easier on the rest of us, and with digital dosen't really effect the sound quality. This is how I record, and how i suggest someone should do it... if they can. I have a nice clipon sax mic that I bought about 8 years ago (wow it's been a long time). I have that and my laptop plugged into my DJ mixer which allows me to do a few things. 1) I can monitor both the sax and music though my headphones and/or though my stereo... this is VERY important and selfish since I can hear on the spot what is being recorded, and I can hear wrong notes right away. To record I have the master out going to my desktop, and I can adjust the levels on the mixer, and on the computer. I would really suggest to anyone to get a cheap small mixing board so they can do this! It makes life easy, and you have a lot more control over the sound. (if you have a regular mic). Then you can send the output to be recorded on the same computer you're using for biab or whatever... Plus you can mix both signals to get things to sound good, or do a bunch of other things. =) I hope most of that made sense, if not email me! Andy

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        30. by Radjammin
          (255 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          Ok I spent some time at work today and work out something on my web site. I am going to start a new tread in Jazz Disscussion on this site called : SOTW/VintageHorn Post your recording here! I think what I have set up will work pretty good. I might even keep record of our song of the month. on my site.

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        31. by Radjammin
          (255 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          I updated my links. Now you don't have to register to listen. Try to post on my new thread. www.saxquest.com/forumThreadView.asp?ForumUID=8&ThreadUID=5897

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        32. by Radjammin
          (255 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          update: I added a cool mp3 player. To hear it: go to www.vintagehorn.com and read the first article, click "read more" Maybe we can set up an All star list article and have some voting on who we think did the best on each recording? That would be fun. Now all I need is some feedback from some saxophonist that actually want to participate!!! Radjammin.

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        33. by golferguy675
          (600 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          Hey Rad, that Samson USB mic you were talking about...does it have a stand that would work for a desk or other flat surface? Also, I may have a recording from a recent gig that I could post soon.

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        34. by Radjammin
          (255 posts)

          18 years ago

          Re: Recording posting,

          Hello everyone, I worked on this song this weekend, www.vintagehorn.com/Better_Late_Then_Never_Render_Take4.mp3 I did the entire song (except the backgrounds) on my Alto Sax. Yes, it did take a long time I hope you all enjoy. Not really posting for feedback but it is allways welcome.

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