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Forum » Vintage Saxophones » Are Modern Horns Not As Good? by Michael Collins (13 posts) 18 years ago Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Seriously, I hear a lot of people on saxophone forums say that modern horns are just as good as - if not better - than vintage horns. So then why is it that I have NEVER seen a professional saxophonist using a modern horn as his main axe? I'm not trying to bash modern horns or anything, I just want to know what's the deal behind this. The only pro saxophonist that I have heard of using a modern horn is Phil Woods, who uses a Yamaha 82Z. And from what I hear, he only uses it because he has had health problems and it is easier for breath control than his VI, which he would otherwise be using all the time if it weren't for his health problems. If, like many people say, modern horns are at least just as good, don't you think that at least SOME professionals, if not most of them, would be playing modern horns? Can anyone shed any light on this one? Reply To Post [Report Abuse] Report Abuse Web Address * Your Name Your Email Address Comment
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by barisax999 (400 posts) 18 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? to start, this is just something i heard, cant truly vouch for it, but apparently phil woods was caught playing his mark vi because of its superiority and has now lost his yamaha sponsorship. the big part of vintage serperiority is the tone due to the materials. nobody can really imitate the metal mixtures they used to use. also, modern horns tend to use less metal so they dont have as full of a tone. there is not a modern horn that can project as well as my super balanced action. keilwerths are close to the projection, but the tone doesnt come close. also, a lot of pros have been playing on their horns for decades, they dont want to learn the ins and outs of a new horn, nor pay for one. ive played my horn a for just over a year, and even if there is a new horn that can out play it, i probably wouldnt upgrade. Reply To Post Yahoo! AIM by swingstreet (315 posts) 18 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Many of the vintage horns were handmade by craftsmen who took pride in their work. It took more time to build a vintage horn, and better grades of metals were used, as well as different metal combinations that are not being used today. Another factor is that if a horn has been played over the years, the metal will achieve a resonance that only time and use can give it. I think that there are quite a few good modern horns, but they are being built differently, using machines and computers, lacking the human touch that gives any instrument a special, unique quality. True, the ergonomics are superior to old horns, but not the sound, in my opinion. However, one thing to keep in mind is that old horns were once new, and maybe there is a new horn being built now that will achieve true vintage status. Can't think of one though. Reply To Post by zoot1a (1 post) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? My Selmer Series 2 Tenor, is a candidate for being a"vintage" horn in the years to come.,like the mark 6 is today. I bought it 3 years ago (in new condition) after playing my Conn Transitional for over 40 years.It took a while to get used to,and most of my freinds thought I was crazy,but I think that in the long run a horn is just a tool >its the player that makes the sound.This was made very clear to me back in the early 50's when I saw and heard Charkie Parker playing on a Grafton plastic alto.All that being said I still love my very unshiny SelmerCigar Cutter Alto !! Reply To Post by Donnie The B (282 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Can you picture a site like this 30 years from now --- Wow you guys should hear my 2001 Yamaha 82Z - it's a classic! Brass metallurgical formulas CAN be done exactly the same today as the 1920's through 1960's. The only thing that has changed much at all in the foundries is there are a few more low-lead formulas in use. Perhaps the horn factories choose to use a lower copper content brass today because of cost though. After all: a 60/40 yellow brass does have 60% copper at $3+ per pound. So it would cost a whole $24 extra today vs. then? I would guess saxes use more like a 70/30 brass, so maybe $30 extra cost due to the copper market? I think the comment about hand assembly is the key. If $4800 is a fair price for a CNC produced pro Selmer today, assembled with robotics, I would guess hand assembly would add 10 man hours - perhaps for $200 extra cost to Selmer translating to $400 more out the door? There probably aren't more than a dozen such craftsmen left however. And they aren't teaching the craft to youngsters. So in reality, Selmer could charge $8000 - $11,000 list - for a hand assembled new horn, formed and drilled with the CNC machines of course. Hmm - what would you have to pay for a new old stock Mark VI? $8000 or more I'd guess. As to Phil Woods. he is getting old, like many of us. The Mark VI he always used to play, if in good shape, would blow just as easily as that Yamaha. So I believe the temporary endorsement story. Later. Reply To Post by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? As a matter of qualification, I'm currently employed as designer for five different saxophone brands, and oversee the manufacturing of all of them. You can specify any alloy you want. We use a different mix in each one of our lines. The "better brass was used in the past" story is a myth. Many manufacturers today use a higher percentage of zinc to give the horn a brighter sound, but they are only following consumer preference. The cost of the metal used is a VERY minor consideration in saxophone construction, as it is only a small fraction of total production costs. Almost every maker with which I am familiar still hand assembles keywork. I'm not aware of anyone who has been able to successfully automate that process fully, including Selmer. There are various degrees of hand work used in the fabrication of bodies, bells, bows, and necks. On some of our lines, the bell is hand hammered. On one of our lines, the bell, body, bow, and neck are hand hammered and THEN hand burnished. On some of our lines the process is pretty much machine done. The "old craftsmen were better" business is also a myth. There are highly skilled assemblers and key fitters around today, and plenty of them. Most of the major factories have apprentice programs to train new highly skilled workers. There is a tremendous variation in the perfection of key fitting and final assembly in the market today. You get what you pay for. For two of our lines, we pay considerably more for assembly in order to get the best job possible. Saxophone design has come a long way over the years. Modern horns are much better accoustically and use far superior materials. Keywork designs are more ergonomic. If you look at the instrument of choice of well known players, I believe you will see that the vast majority of them are using instruments of modern design. Reply To Post by Donnie The B (282 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Steve- Thanks for sharing the facts. I really could not comprehend how assembly robotics could handle sax keywork - despite hearing this story from different people for a dozen or more years. And having dealt with brass metallurgy some in the past, it makes sense that the more zinc versus copper, the brighter the sound, because the metal becomes harder. Even though I have a bit of a vested interest in perpetuating myths about vintage horns - due to ownership - I'm relieved to hear about the apprenticeship programs still being in place at Selmer, and elsewhere. And it's good to know that modern horns still have their keywork hand fitted. But since Steve knows of no manufacturer who can use robotics to accomplish the final forming and fit on a sax - it certainly bodes ill for bargain shoppers does it not? If I could afford a modern replacement for an old Selmer, I'd certainly be sure to spend the money to get a well-qualified craftsman finishing my horn. As to current pros using modern horns, I bet it depends on how modern (young) they are. I know a bunch of old cats like me blowing old brass and taking money for doing it. Later. Reply To Post by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Most key assemblers, both in Europe and elsewhere, are paid "piece work" rates. This cost is not a significant factor in total manufacturing expense. ALL saxophones have their keys "hand fit" during assembly. There's no other way to do it. There are different tecniques employed, some better than others. On one series of our horns, we specify the specific technicians who are doing the assembly due to their extraordinary skill level. Reply To Post by connsaxman_jim (2336 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? I wouldn't say that Modern horns are not as good. There are some models that are very good. There does; however, seem to be a wider range of quality. Conn-Selmer, for example, markets student quality horns manufactured in Asia under various names, as well as pro quality Selmer horns. If you take a look back 50 years at the Conn Director model horns, the quality of these "student" horns was very good. Most student horns today don't even begin to compare. Sure, there are several GREAT new horns, but they sell for a premium price. I don't disagree with you Steve, and maybe it's more my own personal prefference, but most vintage horns just seem to have better tone and more character to their sound. My old 10M is a fairly heavy horn, and I have always thought that the sound was at least partially due to brass, and the thickness of the brass that was used. Jim Reply To Post Yahoo! by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Actually, we agree more than we disagree. One of my recent designs uses some rather unique (by modern standards) metal recipes to achieve the sound of the great horns of the past. I think I achieved getting "the sound" coupled with modern keywork and better accoustics. You'll have to play one to form your own opinion. I'm quite proud of it. The Director series was a pretty nice horn until Conn acquired the A.M. Best Company and shifted production of that series there. Reply To Post by johnsonfromwisconsin (767 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? I personally like all kinds of saxophones, modern and vintage. I just don't own nearly enough of them. Reply To Post by swingstreet (315 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Steve, I respect your opinions, but on some points here I disagree. I've tried literally thousands of horns, and with few exceptions, I haven't encountered many modern horns that resonate like the great old horns I've played. Perhaps my choice of words "better metals" is not quite right. However, they made alloys that are not being tried today on a regular basis. I am aware you can have a horn made with any alloy you like, but at what cost? Perhaps there's no market for those kind of horns. Personally, I would love to see a silver-plated horn with a gold bell again, but I haven't seen any modern examples of that. Gerry Mulligan, in one of his last interviews in Saxophone Journal before his death, also brought up the subject of the metals being used on modern horns and why he preferred his Conn over the Selmer he had. He commented that when he toured the Conn factory, they were using metals that modern horns were not using. Of course, this doesn't make a horn inferior, just different. Modern horns are being made for modern music I guess. Loud and brassy. I'm sure that there are some fine craftsman today, especially the many fine repair techs that I've known. However, in the US, the number of such skilled craftsmen has declined along with top quality saxes being made in the US. I'm glad to hear that there are apprenticeship programs for new sax builders. Hopefully, one of these builders will combine modern design with old world craftsmanship. By the way, I know more pro players using older horns than modern ones. Mark VI is still preferred. I prefer the Conn 6M. Tonally, it kicks the ass of any horn I've heard. Believe me, I would rather play a shiny, new, ergonomically designed horn. Yes, the ergonomics on the Conn could have been better, but I've gotten used to it. There is nothing out there, not the VI or the Reference, Series III, or Yamahas, or Keilwerth's, Yani's, Cannonballs, etc., that can touch my Conn, or many Conns or Martins I've tried. I haven't tried P. Mauriat so I won't comment on them. However, I still said that there are a lot of good modern horns. I still keep trying horns as much as I can, because truth is, the day I find a modern horn with the sound and punch of my Conn, I will buy it. Reply To Post by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? The cost of different alloy's is not significantly different. The actual cost of the metal used in saxophone construction is a very, very small percentage of total manufacturing costs. There are NO saxophones currently being manufactured in the USA. There are a number of horns out there (including some of my designs) that use a very different alloy which you did not reference in your post. I think if you look around a bit, you may find a modern instrument that is to your liking..... Reply To Post by jamterry (573 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? I started out on a beat up old Buescher alto and progressed to a Conn 16M tenor. When I started playing professionally, I wanted brand new pro horns with shiney lacquer. That's when I got my MK VI's in 1966, and I still have them. I wouldn't buy a MK VI now, because I would want a new horn. Some of you oldtimers are clinging to the past, and you younger players are caught up in the lore of old horns. Worry about your playing more and the horn less. I recommend the ref 54 for a serious young musician. When you get old, you can sit by the fireplace and look at your vintage ref 54 :) Practice and enjoy your music. Terry Reply To Post Yahoo! AIM ICQ by Queen_liz (5 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Well said Terry! Lovely though saxes are, it's always the player that makes the horn, not the other way around, sure a better horn might make you sound better up to a point, but it can only take you so far. liz x Reply To Post by Donnie The B (282 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Steve- Do you know if Selmer Paris (Pro Models) are still made in France? Are they largely still shipped to a plant here for this dis-assembly, reasembly process that I heard about on the Mark VI horns? Or does final regulation and shipping damage inspection fall largely on the music stores or consumer? Also, which alloy (or brand/model) would more closely replicate the vintage lush, dark sound rather than what I call the Japanese overly bright sound? Thanks for your time. Reply To Post by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? They're still made in Mantes, France and shipped fully assembled to dealers worldwide. Final regulation is done by the retailer. If you're looking for a dark, lush sound, try a horn with a very high copper content in the alloy such as a Yanigasawa bronze or a Saxgourmet Model Six. Reply To Post by theguythatdidstuff (18 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Recently i went to a music store in washington and tried three saxes. one was a yamaha custom Z with a shotblast silver finish. one was a king zpehyr special. the one i will never forget was the gold plated SML. all were great saxes, but the tone of those two vintage horns were amazing. they just played better in every way. Reply To Post by pri_nce33 (7 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? On vintage horns, not only were they hand finished, the horns were made with better brass and the horns were thicker, thus the horn resoniates better. Now some people say that the quality and the thickness has nothing to do with how the horn sounds, however i think that is BS, the material has to do with everything how the horn sounds. Modern horns these days use a brass of lesser quality and the body tubes are a lot thinner, and that would have a large impact on the tone of the horn. Reply To Post by connsaxman_jim (2336 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? I agree pri_nce. The composition and thickness of the brass does make a difference in the sound. I know a man, Wayne Fairchild is his name, who makes custom banjos. Wayne's banjos are some of the best banjos in the world. He hand selects the brass that he uses to make the tone rings that fasten the banjo head to the rim. In taking some of these tone rings of various sizes and compositions, holding them by a string and tapping them with a mallet, the heavier brass rings do tend to resonate much better. Just an observation. Jim Reply To Post Yahoo! by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? When designing a new series of horns for Orpheus Music, I did a lot of experimentation with different brass alloy mixes. I think the reason the older horns are often admired for their sound is that they had less zinc in the alloy. I've measured the wall thickness of over a hundred horns, and there doesn't seem to be an significant variation between old and new specifications. The difference is the metal, which is extremely easy to duplicate. You can specify any alloy you wish. We found that a high copper/low zinc alloy duplicated the "sound of the past". Reply To Post by theguythatdidstuff (18 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? i dont know if this makes a difference of not, but moast if not all of the un laquered or plated horns ive played have sounded more open and vintage. ps i have a lyon and haley alto sax and its a light horn, but its still got a fat tone. Reply To Post by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? There's no reason for any reasonable finish to make a difference in tone or response. The finish is simply too thin to make a difference. I've had the luxury of checking over a hundred horns at once from the same production run, in four different finishes, using various electronic test equipment which shows the fundamentals and the overtones. There's no difference. Modern plated finishes are about 2/10,000th of an inch thick. Modern lacquer is usually put on a little thicker, but not much. There's just not enough material there to influence the sound. Reply To Post by theguythatdidstuff (18 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? to me i guess its just the feel. is it just me or do most of the new selmers feel closed or verry resistant. Reply To Post by Donnie The B (282 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? I actually tried a recently made (pro line) Selmer Reference 36 tenor and it blew freely. Good sound too. Just could not see paying so much more than the $200 or so necessary to tune-up my ancient Mark VI. I mean these new Selmers are 8 or 9 times what they were in the early 1960's. Is everything up that much? But if price were no object, I would not mind blowing a brand new, or nearly new, horn. As for what you noticed, get a tech to open the keys up some? - - - Later. Reply To Post by shadowsax (4 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? My 54' 10m has an amazing amount of charactor for a few reasons, 1: It is made of thick brass, so it is much deeper, and 2: It has been played so much over the years that it is extremely broken in, and ofcourse it was made much differently and with more care than most saxes today. But even with my 10m, I still find a huge amount of love and favor for my shadow, it is made out of thick nickel silver, its the heaviest "new" sax I have ever used and it has a wonderfully deep sound, and just by looking at it you can tell that the time and care has been used to create it, it really does have charactor in the sound and how it looks. So I think the reason why just about every professional likes the old saxes is charactor, not only in sound, but in looks too, my 10m is missing almost half of the laquer, but when I pull it out, people know what style im going to play, and even I must admit, old horns just have that classy look, and especially, the classic, jazzy, original sound that everyone craves! Reply To Post by theguythatdidstuff (18 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? The next saturday we have avalable, me and a friend are going to go try out a bunch of tenors. We're going to do a blind sound test where one of us plays, and the other listend and describes the sound on paper. Then we'll swich and do it again. There are going to be all types of saxes new and old. when we are done i'll post the results here. Reply To Post by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Be sure to take a good tuner with you, and tune each horn to A=440. Check the intonation of the palm keys and the bell keys carefully. Use the same reed and mouthpiece and check the octave matches. Reply To Post by theguythatdidstuff (18 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? ok will do. what are some plating tests that can de done on tenor jut to get a feel for what kind of horn it is. EXE(overtones, multiphonics, low tones, ... that kind of thing. Reply To Post by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Don't try to judge intonation with a $20 tuner. While a cheap tuner is better than no tuner at all, they're not MUCH better!! Try matching octaves throughout the range with and without use of the octave key. There shouldn't be much difference in pitch. Pay particular attention to the notes at the high end and low end of the horn (palm keys tend to be sharp, bell keys tend to be all over the place) and the notes around the pads that are normally closed (G#, Eb, low C#). Make sure the chromatic fingerings for Bb, C, and F# are the same pitch as the "regular" fingerings. Does the horn acquire a different "voice" when you use the octave key? If possible, have several people play the horn USING THE SAME MOUTHPIECE AND REED and average out the results. A good tuner like a Stoboconn or a Peterson will show you the intonation tendecies of the fundamentals and the overtones. A $20 Korg tuner will show you next to nothing other than a very general range of the pitch. Reply To Post by Tbone (120 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? You can just smell the snake oil running out of this one. Different alloys, finishes, etc. It's all hype and flash IMHO. Let's go with the simple science. The vibrating reed sets the air column in motion. It's the air column that's responsible for the overall sound not the body tube's sympathetic vibrations. The db level of the metal is too far below that of the air column to have any appreciable effect on the overall tone. The body is merely the vessel to contain the air column. What it's made of isn't really all that important. Don't believe it? Listen to Bird on a POS plastic Grafton. Reply To Post by theguythatdidstuff (18 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? So you deny the fact that a bronze sax a brass sax and an, o lets say... plastic sax all sound different Reply To Post by theguythatdidstuff (18 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? O and i forgot, if the finish and materiel dont afect the sound. Then why do companies make saxes with different finishes and of different materiels. Also shouldn't the consumer notice that, hey i just played a black lacquer, a gold lacquer, a no lacquer, a sliver plate, then a gold plate horn, and they all sounded the same. NO people buy a sax FOR THE SOUND. If every type of finish and ever materiel resulted in the same sound, everyone would have the same type of lacquer and materiel, because it would be the least expensive. (If the science of sax were simple, we would have invented the perfect sax long ago) Reply To Post by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? I'd be very interested to know the extent of your experimentation and experience in saxophone design, Tbone. I've worked with many different alloys (and other variables) and tested the results on some rather sophisticated equipment, and couldn't disagree with you more. I also correspond with most of the designers for the "major" saxophone brands and manufacturers regulalry, and they all, without exception, agree that the alloy is one of the most important determinants of sound. Reply To Post by theguythatdidstuff (18 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? AMEN Reply To Post by musicwriter2001 (14 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? i have been reading this thread from its start. i think we are all fortunate to have mr. goodsons input, i think everyone would agree that he is an authority. for my two cents, i have a 1902 silver holton tenor, and a 1959 brass buescher 400. the silver tenor weighs more, is louder with the same effort and to me is a lot "brighter" than the brass buescher. i like silver horns, i also have 2 silver altos from the early teens and late 20's. of course material makes a difference. to me, a grafton has a sound all its own, as does a brass mark six, and a silver....... you get the point. Reply To Post by swingstreet (315 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Tbone, I worked in a sax shop at one time. I have literally tried thousands of horns, including the Grafton. Yes, you can get a sound out of any saxophone but the same sound? Come on. Steve has said it, and anyone else who knows anything about horns will say it too. The different alloys give the horn a different tonal quality. That is what sax players choose their horns for. BTW, what horn do you play on and why did you choose it? Reply To Post by theguythatdidstuff (18 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Im still kinda new to vintage horns. But besides the tone what else do they have over modern horns. Reply To Post by Tbone (120 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Swing, I never said that they all sound the same. For that matter when I bought a MK VI (over 30 years ago) the vendor had 6 of them in stock all in lacquer. They all sounded different. To make matters worse, switching the necks around created even more variables! I guess they must have all been made with different alloys? Yeah, right. All the same make model and year in the same finish. I contend that the conical bore of each horn was slightly different thus effecting the overall tone. I once questioned Keilwerth in regards to their ad on their website claiming the effects of finish on tone. They told me there was no scientific proof of any truth to it and that as most players believe it to be true they will continue to advertise it as such. As far as horns go I have far too many to list and many were bought purely on impulse. But, let me assure you that none were bought specifically on copper or zinc content alone! ;-) Once upon a time all the so called experts were dead certain that the world was flat also! And, the Hugo was touted as a wonderful compact car! :-)````` Reply To Post by theguythatdidstuff (18 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Ok, first of all its a yougo NOT a "Hugo" And you did say "The db level of the metal is too far below that of the air column to have any appreciable effect on the overall tone." -Tbone WOW. Have you ever even played a sax in your life. Anyone who can say. "As far as horns go I have far too many to list" -Tbone should at least know something as obvious as what efect materiel has on tone. Because even i know that. Reply To Post by swingstreet (315 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Well Tbone, a Mark VI is not the horn to try for consistency of tone. Of all the top ranked vintage horns I've tried, I have always found the Mark VI to be the most overall inconsistent horn tonally. I have tried hundreds, and the tones ranged from deep and rich to flat and lifeless and everything in between. Horns like Conns, Martins Kings and Bueschers have a better consistency of tone with the different metals they used. That's just in my experience of course. My favorite has always been silver plated horns with gold bells, like my Conn 6M. Believe me, I can hear a difference between that horn and other horns. The differences may be minute, but they are there. Also, part of the tone also must come from the players themselves. The only thing that I could agree on, is that whatever alloy the horn is made of, it will only sound good if the player knows how to play. Reply To Post by Tbone (120 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? I went in my shop this morning and counted up all the "complete" horns I currently have. (52 at the present time) There's also another 30 or so waiting for attention. The back room contains literally 100's of donors and carcasses along with an 8X14 wall full of parts bins. (Yes I am a hoarder by nature) Swing,Since you mentioned Conns I took out three vintage 10m's (all from the 1950's) and tried them all. They're all the same finish and pad/reso configuration. They all have a slightly different tone using the same reed and piece. Guess they must be of different alloys also? How else could one explain the differences? :-(```` I contend that the dimensions of the horn (bore), MP, and you the player are much more responsible for overall tone than the base alloy used in manufacturing or 7 mils of silver or gold on the outside surface of the horn. Just remember, "the salesman said it so it must be true!" Want to buy a bridge in Brooklyn? Reply To Post by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Just remember, "the salesman said it so it must be true!" Tbone: I have the luxury of being able to try the same horn (or at least one built on the same tooling to the same specifications) in different alloys and then being able to electronically test for differences. This is an important part of my saxophone design process. Since you seem to doubt my results, would you mind sharing with us the type of tests you have run and the specific test equipment you use? Reply To Post by johnsonfromwisconsin (767 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? I have the luxury of being able to try the same horn (or at least one built on the same tooling to the same specifications) in different alloys and then being able to electronically test for differences. This is an important part of my saxophone design process. Steve, Is it not the case that horns made out of the same material using the same processes and the same tooling also tend to sound different? Reply To Post by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Honestly, there is ALWAYS a slight difference. It should never be significant. Our process to deal with this is as follows: I build the first prototypes, and send them to manufacturing. Manufacturing then builds ONE just like what I sent. If the first one is OK (same as the prototype), we then have manufacturing build 25 examples. If they are all the same (showing the process can be repeated), we then order the production of a full run. I play and electronically test EACH of the 25 pre-production horns. There's a little more variation on the totally handmade series, but our tolerance is 2% variation. I've always attributed that to the fact that the body, bow, and bell are hand hammered and hand burnished. Honestly, you can't really find much variation at all. I will admit that I usually pick my personal horns carefully, but we've gotten the manufacturing end down to where they're all coming out of the plant essentially identical. In the past, there was considerably more variation, and I attribute that to the soldering technique used then vs. now and that the alloys available may not have been as consistant as what we can now obtain. If you play a lot of horns from the major makers, you'll see that consistancy in manufacturing has come a long way recently. Most of the majors have changed the way bells and bodies are soldered, and that seems to have made a lot of difference. Yes, there's a slight difference, but my ear AND my test equipment assures me that it's now next to nothing. Reply To Post by JaZzer (25 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? I've been watching this discussion for a while now. Honestly, there are may factors that contribute to the sound of a horn. The players themselves are a huge variable, as well as MP and reed. Another though, would be the neck. I've been playing on a 60,000 SN VI alto for a while now. It has a lot of presence, a dark sound, and is relatively light. I switched the original neck with a yamaha G1 neck, which changed the sound substantially. I played a VI that was a 79,000 SN, and the sound was comparibly brighter. I put the G1 neck on it, and the sound was closer to that of the 60,000. My personal opinion is tha tthe neck also has a lot to do with sound. That ill playing horn may really be an outstanding player, the neck might just be the right one for the job though. The neck is where the vibrations from the MP and reed are transffered through to the body, so it is a paramount part of the horn. I do agree with mr. goodson, the alloy is important, if not so, manufacturers wouldn't vary alloy content to manufacture horns for that "vintage sound" or "contemporary sound" Most of this is a matter of opinion (though there are facts to support statements). Of course everyone has one, and they've had their fair share of experiences as to contribute their part. However, many lack the qualifications that Mr. Goodson has. Only one that can acknowledge that they themselves have tested, compared, designed and measured many horns has the credence to restate results, as in facts, not opinions. That is not to say that others are not qualified, but credibility is key in establishing opinions and results. To answer another question at the beginning of the post, most pro players play on vintage horns because that's what they've been playing on for so long. That worn out mark vi was new when they started, but now it's that coveted bare brass horn that the player has had throughout their career. Many pros have gig and studio horns. Some use a yamaha for shows and a vi for studio work, or vice versa. It's all preference to the player. I believe it's a matter of breaking in the horn, not the horn itself, but to the player. Getting used to the intonation differences, tonal colors, overtones, resistance and response, it's not done in 5 minutes. That's probably one reason why many players stay true to their old horns, they know them on a very personal level. I'm a younger player, but this much I see. That's not to say it can't be refuted though. Reply To Post by connsaxman_jim (2336 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Here's my 2 cents based on my experience: There are MANY factors that influence the sound of a saxophone, but none are as significant as the player. Mouthpieces also make a big difference in the sound. The design and material of the mouthpiece can greatly effect the overall tone of the horn. A metal mouthpiece will resonate better than a plastic mouthpiece or even a hard rubber mouthpiece. A mouthpiece with a large open chamber will usually produce a louder, fuller sound. The thickness and material of the reed also effects the tone. Synthetic materials, like the fibracell reeds, sound synthetic. In my opinion, good quality cane reeds sound the best. I typically use LaVoz, Alexander, or Rico Jazz Select Reeds; LaVoz mediums being my favorite. The ligature has little effect on the overall tone of the horn, but some ligatures do dampen the vibration of the reed more than others. A Rovner Dark ligature, for example, will reduce the brightness and resonation of a horn by dampening the vibration of the reed. Other factors that influence the sound of a saxophone are the bore size, the metal (thickness and composition), the size of the bell, the pads and more importantly, the resonators. Last but not least, the finish of the horn: silver, gold, lacquer, unlacquered, nickel, etc. The finish is almost insignificant and has little effect on the overall tone im MOST cases. There are those cases, such as with older plated horns where the plating has been stripped (metal removed) where I have been able to notice a difference in tone. Supposedly, The Silver-plated horns tend to produce a warmer sound, gold-plated horns are the brightest, and lacquered horns tend to produce a darker sound. Saxophone companies today are using various compositions and alloys, and the one that seems to be the most popular has a reddish cast and a high copper content. While the copper may effect the tone of the horn slightly, I believe that the thickness of the brass, the bore size, and the size of the bell would have a more significant effect on the overall sound of the horn more so than the actual material. I recently had the opportunity to experiment with several P Mauriat horns, and I was completely blown away by the quality and sound of these great horns. P Mauriat offers a variety of different horns designed to duplicate both vintage American or French traditional saxophone voicing. I was very pleased with the PMXT-66R tenor. The horn played better than many horns costing twice as much, and had the best vintage tone of any new horn I've played! If you are looking for a new sax, I would definately check out P Mauriat! Jim Reply To Post Yahoo! by Saxyboy (52 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? This discussion seems to have stirred many true sax men to write. I too have heard some stories and myths about older horns, and since I play a 1960 Selmer, I might be prejudiced. But I accept what Mr Goodson has said and am trying to re-order my brain! I've been playing for about 15 years now - 10 or more as a semi-pro. All I know is, I learned on a Vito tenor, graduated to a neat old 1950's Conn and finally made enough money playing to spring for a Mark VI. Before buying the old Selmer, I tried two Japanese POS's, a better pro model 1940's Conn, and several other old and new horns they had in stock at the music store. Nothing had the great sound or ease of keywork that the Mark VI did. This was 8 years ago now. I've made some decent bucks with this Selmer and having heard more about new horns here, I'm anxious to repeat my horn trials, but would have to have enough money to keep my ax - can't trade it away like I did that old Conn. I know I'll never get another great old horn like this - but I now have the hope of getting a great new horn someday. But I won't buy a new one if it doesn't play right or sound good. I don't have to have a pretty horn, but the idea is appealing to a part of my brain! Reply To Post by swingstreet (315 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? This kind of debate will go on forever no doubt, with everyone believing what they want to and everyone is right. The bottom line is, if the horn works for you, gives you the sound and feel you want, then who gives a rat's patoot if it's old or new. Just play the damn things already. Make music. Reply To Post by theguythatdidstuff (18 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Over the last few weeks i've been looking for a new (vintage) sax, and i've been asking my band director(s) a lot of questions about sound and control and just everything. So one day in the morning before school, we were listening to some Richard Elliott and he asks me "What is up with sax players and there sound". I told him that there were so manny different styles and sounds to play with, than in the beginning you listen to some of the greats of the past like parker and trane. You find what you like and go from there to create "your tone" or "your sound". Then my director started talking about sonny rollins, and the rest of the conversation was over my head. Right now im trying to find the horn that wil let me play and sound like the saxophone in my head. (i think thats right, feel free to correct me.) Reply To Post by shadowsax (4 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Yes, it good to find your own horn for your own sound. I have found alot of help on this site for brands and models, read some of the older posts, ask questions about vintage saxes, but just remember that in the end of your, no one can tell you what sound you want. YOU need to go out there, try out the saxophones for yourself, and see what tone, look, and feel you like. I encourage suggestions, but try to pick a vintage horn yourself, dont let someone pick it for you, because that could limit "the sound" that your looking for! it worked for me! Reply To Post by misha2 (2 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? what do you think gives different muscians such markedly different sound.is keilwerth worth it.breaking in/financial.does the alloy sound different?why do older broken in horns have a different sound.i am not a muscian.lay terms please Reply To Post by misha2 (2 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? what do you think gives different muscians such markedly different sound.is keilwerth worth it.breaking in/financial.does the alloy sound different?why do older broken in horns have a different sound.i am not a muscian.lay terms please Reply To Post by saxologist (13 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? I love my Martin HC..what a tank Reply To Post AIM by west (242 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? MIsha2, I honestly believe that people who have played a certain sax for years believe that it has an unmatched sound is because they are familiar with the saxophone's faults and know how to deal with them. A musician develops their own sound over time, I believe, by compiling what they like of proffessionals they have heard, and tmaking it their own. Reply To Post by jaroba (6 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? I"ve been reading all the posts now for a while and i would like to say a few thoughts here. I've been playing sax for twenty years now. And starting out i was at the mercy of what i could find and what my family could afford. I think that mostly it is what the player can produce from working with the horn and using there skills as a player. I also believe that there are very good vintage horns, all the brands that we have talked about. I believe that there are very good new horns out there. And of course time will tell how many of the current horns will hold up. Much in the same way as the great makers of violins and cellos, only the best ones will hold up in time. Currently i play every weekend somewhere, and i see vintage and new horns being played. I think it just comes down to what vibrates with you. Now i own three vintage saxes, and have borrowed new horns and found many to be good and really if you find a great horn isn't that the most important thing here? My five favorite horns of all time are: King super 20, Beuscher 400 top hat& cane, Selmer Radio improved, Yanagisawa 991, Keilwerth Shadow. Reply To Post by selmer 4evr (309 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Here we go again,,, are modern cars just as good if not better than vintage cars ,,of course they are ,,,are modern sports equipment better than vintage ,,,would you play pro ball with a 1920 catchers mitt HECK NO,,,collect them maybe but not play with. nostalgia is a bummer that's all ,,people are nostalgic ,,,modern manufacturing techniques are more accurate than the old hands on methods ,,,the only place where old horns have an edge is they are inconsistent since human hands cannot reproduce with repeatability,,, so older horns are in fact all over the place,,and people see this as more individualistic ,,,,,so what about these pros that only use vintage horns? How come legit players are not caught up in this mold. Because their music is more demanding in many ways ,,,and they cannot afford to play on old horns!!! Nice discussion but DUH- pretty lame!!! Reply To Post by Donnie The B (282 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Well e-x-c-u-s-e me 4ever! Read Steve Goodson's posts on this subject again and you'll realize they're still making our beloved Selmers the same way they did in the 1930's to the early 1970's. In fact, I guess all the modern horns rely on hand installed keywork. And the forming machinery is pretty much the same as the extrusion equipment that came out in the late 1920's or early 1930's. The only thing different is CNC capability for close tolerance precision drilling or so forth. But on a saxophone this advantage is minimal. I agree there has been some misinformed opinions represented previously - but not really a lame discussion. Some of this misinformation was repeated by me - and others - at least before Mr. Goodson righted some misperceptions about old vs. new manufacturing techniques. But vintage horn fans are entitled to their preferences just as you say today's legit players are. Incidently, I know two pro classical saxophonists who play 1940's or 1950's horns. Probably depends on what the player prefers, as with jazz or rock saxophonists. Later. Reply To Post by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? For the record, I have a personal collection of over 100 vintage saxophones. I love them all. I'm a big vintage horn fan, and made a living selling vintage horns for many years. On the design side, I always try to take the best I've found on the great horns of the past and try to incorporate it. My Saxgourmet series, for example, is my interpetation of what I thought the Mk VI should have been. It all gets down to what you like, and that's really all that matters. My wife, for example, prefers OLD Cadillac automobiles, and won't drive a new one! She swears the new ones just aren't the same! Reply To Post by connsaxman_jim (2336 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Why do the top-rated MODERN guitar amps use 1950's and 60's vacuum tube technology instead of transistors? Why do keyboard manufacturers like Roland and Korg go to such lengths to reproduce the sounds of vintage sounds like Hammond organs and Rhodes pianos? Why is the Fender Stratocaster, which was first introduced in 1954 STILL the most popular guitar on the planet? Have you priced an Ampeg SVT bass rig lately? Ampeg brought back the massive SVT all-tube bass head and 8X10 cabinet. Made to the exact specifications as the original of the 60's and 70's the company could not build them fast enough! The release of the new amps created a market and demand for the originals, and the old tube monsters were selling for more than the new ones! Why are saxophone companies like P. Mauriat, Keilwerth, and others modeling new horns after vintage American models? While some things have gotten better, others have not. Then, there are things that; while they might be superior in many ways, they lack the character and charm of yesterday. I can drive down the street in a brand new Chevrolet Impala SS. The new Impala is a very nice car, and the SS model with the 5.3 liter, 305 horsepower engine has plenty of get up and go. With cozy leather interior, power locks, windows and air conditioning, a cd changer and XM radio, it's a much more comfortable car to drive than a 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air hard top. Not to mention, the Impala gets much better gas milage, and requires considerably less maintenance. Clear choice here, the Impala is a far superior car. But when you walk out of a restaurant and see the Impala parked next to a 57 Bel Air, which one catches you eye first? Which one makes you think about drive-in movies, burger stands and milkshakes, sock-hops, and cruisin' town with a pretty girl in a poodle skirt? All of a sudden, you forget about air conditioning. You would gladly trade your XM radio for an AM radio that only played the old tunes you grew up with. For most people, the appeal of vintage horns isn't that they are superior to the horns of today, but I wouldn't call them inferior either. They have their ups and downs. They're not for everyone. Is the sound of an authentic Hammond B3 worth the efforts of moving one around from gig to gig? I can tell you from experience, NO, it's not! My back is still sore from the last time I moved my Hammond! Do tube amps really sound that much better than transistors? Yes, I think they do. They have a much warmer tone. Do vintage saxophones really sound that much better than modern horns? Well, I used to think, yes, but now, I think it depends. There are some new horns that sound REALLY good, and you don't have to deal with some of the problems with intonation you see with many older horns. You just need to weigh the pro's and Conns, Bueschers, Kings, Martins, Selmers.....and find what works for you! Jim Reply To Post Yahoo! by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? The Mauriat is NOT modeled after an American horn. The owner of the company is a very close friend of mine, and I often discuss design matters with him. His influences are, shall we say, French....but his designs are very well thought out and original. He does a LOT of prototyping. Reply To Post by selmer 4evr (309 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? So guys what everyone is saying is :: Clarinet players are looking for vintage instruments ,,as are oboe players and let's not forget the flutists of this world they are all craving for flutes from mozart's days are they not,,,please spare me . Do not go to the violins with strad and guarnieri because even that is so subjective and veryone of them has been re-worked with new necks and all . While I might like a conn constellation m28 I would not want to sit in an orchestra pit with one ,,,jazz does have other requirements,,, too perfect a horn is actually boring for jazz,,,even tone and accurate tuning are a detriment . Oh by the way what is winton marsalis playing on, Oh yes an old Martin right ......when will north america learn we are too conservative. If this is not enough see,,, Reply To Post by selmer 4evr (309 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Conn sax I just read your post i dared not at first since I figured that it was going to be "deja read" but you shacked me ,,,congrats on being honest . sorry guys here is the link again www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/vintage_modern.htm Reply To Post by definition (963 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? No Selmer, Wyron plays on a very expensive custom built Monette tpt Reply To Post Yahoo! AIM by connsaxman_jim (2336 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Steve, I don't know how you can say that the P Mauriat PMXT-66R, or the PMST-66 are NOT modeled after an American horn! The P Mauriat PMXT-66R is advertised boasting Vintage American Sound; and having played the horn in comparison with a couple vintage Conn horns, the similarities are obvious. While the key guards and key cups look French, like a Buffet Dynaction or Selmer Super Balanced Action, there is no mistaking the rolled tone holes, and the keywork, which has a somewhat vintage feel. It's no carbon copy of a Conn 10M by any means, and I didn't mean to imply that it is. But it has a very nice vintage sound. It DOES sound a lot like a Conn! If the designer's intention was to create a horn that sounded close to a vintage Conn 10M, I would say congratulations, you have succeeded. It's pretty obvious that this particular horn was inspired by vintage Conn, and I think that the Company has done a VERY good job with the quality and design of this horn! Reply To Post Yahoo! by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Sound is one thing. The design was never intended to be "ergonomically" American. Rolled tone holes are far from unique to American horns. I can say what I said because I know the designer very well and was in frequent discussion with him during the design process. They're really excellent horns, IMHO. Reply To Post by Donnie The B (282 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Mainly just bumping this discussion to the top. But wanted to state that this discussion, more than anything else, freed my mind to get a modern horn to take on certain gigs. I play in an oldies rock 'n' roll band that gets some questionable venues at times. I feel much more comfortable with a horn that cost me under $1000 used versus the current $5000 value of my 1961 Selmer Mark VI. And believe me - previously I was a confirmed vintage sax snob. Incidently, the horn is the top of the line E. M. Winston tenor. I still sound like me guys. I didn't believe it myself at first, but the Winston is actually a bit easier to play than the Selmer since it has newer pads - at least down to Low B. But some fool designed the spatula so that Low Bb is a really tough reach. So I've got a Low B tenor for rock 'n' roll. It works fine, but I still prefer my Mark VI. Reply To Post by susanyost32 (6 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? i would like to add if i might that the tone of this discussion leads me to believe something is odd. Whenever one finds such strong opinions and emotional response you also find emotional bagage clouding judgement. One person says for instance that metal matters and calmly offers sound scientific proof. Anyone with ears can hear the fact very easily. But there is always someone on every forum who says NO. Its all a matter of dimensions. And they say it very loudly sometimes in large numbers. How in the world can people have an emotional response to musical instrument metalurgy ? Boy if a marketing department could get hold of this. I can see it now -- * new saxophone made of toilet tissue toobing*. because materials just don't matter and you insiders know it. ;-) Anyway my 5 digit Mk VI is ALOT lighter than my reference 36. I think with the solid silver neck the 36 sounds better or just as good. But where the VI wins so far above the new horn is that blazing fast key action. Never ever felt a modern horn that can do that or come any where near it. Reply To Post by swingstreet (315 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? The debate rages on. Anyway, as I noted in a different post which received almost no responses, not that it needed to, was that I tried a P. Mauriat model with the rolled tone holes and found it had the feel of a modern horn, but with the sound of my Conn and Martin. I really liked it, and I am definitely considering it as my next major purchase. It really looks different than the other new horns out there, seems to be very well built, and its price comers in at half of what a Selmer would cost. I tried the Reference 54. In fact I played about 4 of them. They`re quite good, but really nothing special. They don`t play better than my Conn or Martin, and tonally I felt my trusty old horns were still better. Then I played the P. Mauriat, and it equalled my old horns in sound, but had better ergonomics. So, I can`t justify shelling out big bucks for a horn that isn`t better. Steve, I agree that the P. Mauriat is designed on the French model. All modern horns are. However, I agree with Connsaxman Jim that the Mauriat rolled tone hole model was definitely based on the Conn. In sound and feel(the weight), it is more like a Conn than a Selmer or Buffet-Crampon. The copy on the web site even says so, though it is in Taiwanese Engrish. It says, modeled after the American horns of the so-called Awaken of the 20`s-30`s, whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. Now, I don`t think that modern horns, at least not by the top makers, are inferior instruments by any means. It`s just that they are made for a different generation playing different music. More electronics, louder, less subtelty, lesser range of dynamics or only one dynamic, LOUD. The modern horns are made with this in mind. However, if we really look at the original concept of the saxophone, as developed by its inventor, it was supposed to be an instrument that was as close to the human voice as possible, and is supposed to be an instrument capable of a wide range of expression, which it most definitely is. So why do so many of us like vintage horns? Simply because they were made to capture the subtleties and express the full range of musical emotions. They were also made by hand by the top craftsmen of their day. The fact that so many old horns have survived and are still playable is a testament to their quality. And the sound. Well, until I tried the P. Mauriat, I never plyed a modern horn that had the tonal richness of the old horns I`ve played. Yamahas are good, but I always found the sound rather generic. They are still the best for students, and I know some pros who like them, but you would be surprised to know that here in Japan where I am now, most Japanese players prefer Selmer or Keilwerth to Yamaha, and there is even a young Japanese girl who is making waves here who is playing a Conn 26M. On the Japanese market, Conns, Bueschers, Kings and Martins are going on average for at least US$5000-8000 or more. Why? Because they like the sound, and they recognize the build quality. If there was no validity to the idea that old horns had that sound, then so many modern sax makers wouldn`t be advertising many of their new horns as having that vintage sound. Reply To Post by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Some people will always prefer older horns. I must correct you on a couple of points: older horns were no more "hand made" than modern horns. The manufacturing technique hasn't changed significantly for about a hundred years. There are in fact modern horns specifically designed to capture "subtelty of expression". Don't kid yourself if you think designers would intentionally limit a horns potential. That's bad for business. Reply To Post by swingstreet (315 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Steve, while you certainly know more than I do about the way horns are made, I still have had the experience of trying out literally thousands of horns. I did work in a vintage sax shop in the 90's. I played and sold the horns however, and did not have anything to do with repair, though that is something I want to learn, not only for maintaining my own horns, but because I would like to open my own sax shop in the not too distant future. However, my feeling about the great vintage horns comes from 2 things. I still think they were outstandingly built. I do disagree with you on one small point. While there are still key elements of a sax's construction that can only be done by hand, other aspects are now handled by machines. Of course, I'm not saying that it means that it makes it inferior to a completely hand-made sax, but it still means that modern saxes are in fact less hand-made than older ones, even if slightly so. This is probably insignificant to the sax's actual quality. However, one thing I always notice in the adverts for the better made horns is that they often emphasize the hand-made aspects of their manufacture. They wouldn't need to do this if all horns were in fact hand-made. However, most players and repair techs I talk with share a common belief, even if that belief isn't backed up by scientific fact. It's that through years of playing, these fine horns have achieved a resonance that only comes from having been played often. Of course, that also means the have achieved more wear on the keys and rods, and the finishes get worn. Just like a violinist wants a Stradivarius or Amati violin for the same reasons. Workmanship and sound. I think that there was a time, particularly in the 70's, when horns were manufactured for nothing but modern music. I remember the Yamahas and Yanigasawas of this period, and they were flimsy in look and feel compared to the way they are made now. They sounded thin as well. At that time also, Buescher, King and Martin were in their death throes. By then Conn was essentailly dead as far as I was concerned. Anyway, it seems that in the last few years, there been a tremendous boost in quality to modern horns. Technology is better, but also there is a recognition again that players like the expressive qualities of old horns that was missing from modern horns for a long time. Now is a different time, and I think that manufacturers know that their current and future success lies in making horns that have modern ergonomics coupled with vintage tone. Reply To Post by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? I couldn't agree with you more about the fact that horns improve with age. I believe that the metal "frees up" and responds easier after years of playing. 'bout that manufacturing thing: almost nothing has changed in the last hundred years in the way horns are assembled. True, some of the parts fabrication has become a little more automated, but if anything, this has IMPROVED quality. The "missing quality" you refer to (and I agree) can be attributed to the tendency of some manufacturers (particularly Yamaha) to "brighten" the sound of their horns, favoring upper partials. This tendency is easily corrected, and today buyers are offered numerous options in the fundamental voice of instruments available. Reply To Post by jaroba (6 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Well glad to see such a good discussion going on here. I too have the chance to play on many horns and work in a store managing the horn department. We sell the Buffet 400 series horns that have the brush matte finish on them and i notice how simular the keywork is with the Mauriant does anyone know if they come from the same factory? I notice the Buffet's use straight tone holes. I also found that after a time playing the buffets that i like the tone and response. and for the price a good horn compared to my favorite the keilwerth horns. Reply To Post by STEVE GOODSON (291 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? The Buffet and the Mauriat have entirely different origins: they are made by different people, in different factories, in different countries. I know the owners of both manufacturing companies very well. Reply To Post by jaroba (6 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? Steve thank you glad to hear from someone on the other side of things. So what do yo think of the Buffet 400's? Interesting to find that they are so different makers yet i find so much of the keywork simular and the feel of them for me. Reply To Post by swingstreet (315 posts) 17 years ago Re: Are Modern Horns Not As Good? I always enjoy your input here Steve. Lately, I've had the opportunity to try loads of horns. Currently, I'm in Tokyo as my wife is Japanese, and there are a number of sax shops in the area that I live in. The prices for vintage American horns are sky high. A Conn 6m that is the same as mine goes for US $5600. A 26M goes for US $6500. A The Martin Alto was going for about the same price as the Conn 26M. The jazz sax players here love Art Pepper, so a The Martin fetches these prices. King Super 20's are going for about US $5250. Buescher Aristocrats and 400's around US $3500. Trim about $1000 if the lacquer is worn. Selmer Mark VI's range from US $3500 to $7500, depending on condition. At these prices, I couldn't afford a vintage horn here. In Tokyo, old Yamahas and Yani's are going cheap, and there's an overabundance of them, as you would imagine. On the other hand, I have the opportunity to see and try all of the different horns that are being made in Japan, Taiwan and China. There are some brands here that have yet to see in the States. Of course, I've been here 2 years now, and so it's possible that they may be now. I have been more and more impressed with some of the newest horns from Taiwan. There's a company called Cadeson, and they make some interesting and well made new horns. Antigua Winds saxes are one of the best buys out there I think. A beautiful looking horn with engraving all over it, well-made, with a good basic sax tone. A little bright, but flexible enough to mold with the right mouthpiece and the player's individual approach. The Chinese horns are improving, but I would only get them for a young student, and only if they are being sold through a reputable company. The one new horn that I've tried that I find to be a real player(no pun intended) in the new saxophone market is the P. Mauriat. I played several PMXA-67R Altos, and I was truly impressed. They look gorgeous. The finish is brushed lacquer and given a worn, dark look. The rolled tone holes are a plus for me. Reminiscent of the Conns. The sound equals that of my Conn and Martin saxes, but the ergonomics are better, and I produce the sound with less effort. From top to bottom, the notes just pop out. Altissimo comes out clean and easy. I've already made up my mind to buy it, and am saving the money. The price of the horn is amazing. It's half the price of a Selmer Reference, but it is its equal in every way. I liked the Reference 54, but the price is steep. Even at a discount, it is almost 4 grand. I have to agree with you on this Steve. Technology has certainly improved to the point where a cheaper horn can be almost or as good as a more expensive horn. I think the instrument makers finally listened to players who said they love the vintage sound, and have made new horns accordingly. I am looking forward to trying out more of these horns. Reply To Post