Saxophone Forum


by connsaxman_jim
(2336 posts)
14 years ago

Reasons to hate Selmer!

Many of you are loyal fans of Selmer I'm sure, and you probably have no idea why some people like me just love to HATE the horns that you consider to be the greatest horns ever made! Well, let me give you a little insight. I'm not trying to change your mind here. You love your Selmers, and believe me, Selmer loves you too! And for those of you who think that I'm just "talking out my ass", let me say first off that I have owned 3 Selmer saxophones; a Series III soprano, a Mark VI tenor, and a SBA alto. But, hey, at least this post should make an interesting reed! (that was a pun) Henri and Alexandre Selmer graduated from the Paris conservatory as accomplished clarinetists. Henri went on to perform in the famed Garde Republicaine band and the Opera Comique. By the early 1900s Henri had opened shop at Place Dancourt in Paris to meet the demand for his handmade reeds and mouthpieces. Soon repair work and customizing led to the manufacturing of clarinets. Selmer's clarinet reeds and mouthpieces were superior to those available at the time. As his reputation grew, so did his interest in producing other musical instruments. From 1895 to 1910, Alexandre Selmer served as principal clarinetist with the Boston Symphony Orchestra, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, and the New York Philharmonic Orchestra. Selmer opened a small store in New York City selling as Selmer clarinets prospered after winning a gold medal at the Saint Louis exposition of the 1904 Worlds Fair. In 1918 Alexandre returned to Paris to assist Henri in their growing family business, leaving an employee, George Bundy, the rights to distribute Selmer products in the United States. This is all information taken from the Selmer website. But, who actually developed the early Selmer clarinets? It wasn't Selmer, it was Buffet! Bundy recognized the need to leave New York City in order to expand his manufacturing operations. By the 1920s Elkhart, Indiana, had established a reputation as the band instrument capital. At this time, only Selmer clarinets were French made. Selmer was selling saxophones stenciled under their name that were made mostly by CG Conn, and a few by Buescher (Geo Bundy models) and the Selmer Manhattan models made by Martin. As the demand for saxophones grew, Selmer desperately wanted to be a part of the action, but the little company above the glue company could not begin to meet the supply and demand. They nearly went out of business during the Great Depression when musical instrument sales fell. It was only due to the shrewd, deceitful, and unethical business practices of Geo Bundy that Selmer survived. While the other manufacturers were still selling at retail as well as trying to maintain individual music stores as dealers, Selmer, at the insistence of Joe Grolimund, switched to a policy of selling only at wholesale, and only to legitimate retail stores. Selmer wanted only certain dealers to sell Selmer products and Selmer products ONLY. Geo Bundy continued to have misdealings with Conn and Buescher through the 1940's and 1950's. Perhaps you have heard of the Walmart/Rubbermade scandle. Similar business practices were executed by Bundy. Selmer purchased the Buescher Band Instrument Company just as it was being closed for good in 1963. the actual purchase was by the Bundy Band Instrument Company, a subsidiary of H. & A. Selmer, Inc. The Buescher name and most of the lines were perpetuated by Selmer. Selmer bastardized and desicrated Buescher, eventually renaming the horns "Bundy" The Selmer company continues to gain ground after purchasing Buescher; the company that they themselves practically ran into bankrupsy. They purchased Brilhart; maker of mouthpieces in 1966, and slowly set to take over CG. Conn. Prior to World War I, CG. Conn was the largest supplier of musical instruments to the US Military. Conn also realized the importance of education, and encouraged many schools to introduce music into their curriculum. As the professional band instrument market began to decline in the 1950's, Conn fought hard to promote music in the schools, even funding various orginizations. Conn introduced the Director's model horns in 1955, to satisfy the need for affordable saxophones that were durable yet affordable, and easy to play. Selmer, and Bundy Band Instruments, became the largest supplier of musical instruments to schools, selling their horns at wholesale prices. Conn sold a better product at a reasonable price, and used the proceeds to help fund other music and educational orginizations. Selmer Bundy sold garbage that was just.....cheap, and used the proceeds to buy up and bastardize every company they can get their greedy hands on! The original Mark VI was a great horn. A lot of research and developement went into the original Mark VI. The original design was based on a larger bore French Dolnet saxophone, which Selmer had perfected with a little help from the American companies; mainly Conn and Buescher. But the profit-minded Selmer company continued to offer less horn for more money year after year, making changes to the Mark VI, until it was obvious that they needed to introduce a new horn all together. So, as you know, along comes the Mark VII, then the Super Action 80.....every horn proclaimed to be "The new Mark VI". Don't be "Conned" by Conn-Selmer! (Another pun) Today what horn is NOT part of the Conn Selmer group? VERY FEW! And of those few that remain, it's only a matter of time! Except for maybe Yamaha. Selmer wants to buy out and bastardize any company who makes a competitive product, so you have 2 choices; either pay through the nose for a French Selmer Paris, or buy one of their Chinese or Taiwanese made horns sold under one of the various names they have desicrated!

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  1. by TANGO SIX ONE
    (255 posts)

    14 years ago

    Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

    The knights Templar remember reading and observing footage during the early part of the second world war.The French Tank for example a somuas35, or any Renult Tank. One forward gear and four reverse.(Bird Lives)

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  2. by connsaxman_jim
    (2336 posts)

    14 years ago

    Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

    Many musicians today ONLY know SELMER! Perhaps they started out on a Selmer Bundy, or a Signet, and then bought a Super Action 80, or a Series II or III, or maybe a vintage Mark VI or Mark VII. If they had any experience with Conn, or Buescher, it was some beat-up horn that their school had, which was in much need of repair, or one of the later Mexi-Conn horns. I have had Selmer players ooh and awe over the sound of my old Conn 10M, and when they play it, they are constantly amazed by how easy it plays! Many can't believe how good the Conns really were, and I know MANY Mark VI players who have switched over to vintage Conn 10M's!

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    1. by definition
      (963 posts)

      14 years ago

      Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

      OO you hit all the major disparages I have with Selmer, how they cheapened horns just to make more money, ruined other good names in horns buying them out etc. I was the only person in the program when I went through the university that didnt played almost all selmer equipment, and you know what? I sounded great!! and did well to in the program.

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    2. by Spike
      (248 posts)

      14 years ago

      Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

      I love you

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      1. by connsaxman_jim
        (2336 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        I had hoped that this topic would get a few more responses! Not that I want to provoke a war, but....what are your thoughts? Opinions?

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        1. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          14 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          they are french, what do you expect?

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        2. by billibabjo
          (4 posts)

          9 months ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          oooooh, das racist mi dude

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      2. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        i've always hated selmer

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      3. by definition
        (963 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        I had another one in mind this morning to add but now I cant think of it... But Vandoren reeds!!! I hate them!! they are manufactured harder on the left side because that is better for the traditional french style of playing, but who besides french sax players who started on clarinet plays like that? NO ONE!!!

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      4. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        yuck, vandoren! lavoz and rico select jazz are my reeds of choice.

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      5. by connsaxman_jim
        (2336 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        AMEN Spike! I totally agree on the LaVoz and Rico Select Jazz. I use both. I've never been a big fan of vandoren. Too much inconsistancy. At the price they charge for their reeds, I'd like to see more consistant quality!

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      6. by definition
        (963 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        actually Jim, its really not so much consistency as you'd think with vandorens. The way they produce them just isnt the best suited for the way most of the world plays, but is great for the traditional french style of playing, which was developed as clarinetists switched to sax, and played with the mpc slighty rotated left, paritally to get a more clarinet like embrochure among other things. the result though is reeds that are harder on the left

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      7. by connsaxman_jim
        (2336 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        Before I knew any of this, I hate Selmer! When I first started playing saxophone in 6th grade, my Conn 10M, which hadn't been played in about 15 years needed a repad. We took the horn in to be worked on, and I played the schools Bundy tenor. I HATED it! With a passion! The irony is that it was probably in worse shape than the Conn that I took in to be repaired, and my band director really liked me. So, he brought in his own personal Selmer horn for me to play at school while he repaired the Bundy. It was much nicer than the Bundy, but I still missed my Conn. Once he got the Bundy repaired, he wanted me to play the Bundy even after I got my Conn back, and I said NO WAY! He said he thought the Bundy sounded better. I disagreed and my dad went up to the school to have a word with the director. The compromise? I was able to play my Conn 10M as long as I used a certain Selmer goldentone mouthpiece! I HATED IT! Made my horn sound like the damn Bundy! I fought him tooth and nail until he finally gave in, and let me play a vintage (1950's, pre-Selmer) Brilhart Tonalin piece. This sounded much better. Still, on occasion, I would sneak in my Otto Link Super Tone Master. One time I used it at a competition. He was so pissed, he was ready to have me executed until we got our score; 1's across the board; every catagory, and I won a metal for my solo.....on which I used the Super Tone Master. The funny thing is.....I'm walking off the stage and one of the judges stopped me, and said "Your director lets you use a metal mouthpiece?" I replied.....we he doesn't LET me, but... He chuckled and shook my hand.

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      8. by chiamac
        (586 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        10M plus a nice super tone master... fun stuff!

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      9. by eman19
        (131 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        Yeah I know that my Buescher started sound really sweet after I got my vintage super tone master. And on note for the Selmer thing, I don't see what the big deal over the mark VI is. I played one today, and frankly I think my Martin Committee II is a much better playing horn. The only area where the selmer sounded nicer is the low B and Bb, but I also need to get those two pads replaced on my Martin. The whole Bb spatula was weird in how it moved around on my hand too. I think I could get used to it, but for 3800, I want a horn to fit me like a glove.

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      10. by johnsonfromwisconsin
        (767 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        I don't hate Selmer, in fact, many of my favorite modern horns are Selmers. I tend to be very objective on such things and don't disparage them on their business decisions as a good horn is still a good horn. Apart from setup issues that techs go off on, Selmers are still very good horns. I bet a lot of Jim's angst is from "Selmeritis" or "Mark VI-itis" perpetuated by the profession and academia. There are just a lot of good horns from good makes out there beyond Selmer Paris, both modern and vintage. Selmer really is laying heavily on it's mystique as far as pricing. As much as I love the Ref36 and the 54 Alto, you would have a hard time convincing me they're that much better a horn than what Yamaha is turning out these days, for the cost.

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      11. by blackfrancis
        (396 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        One has to hate the engulf and devour business practices, to be sure. But here's a thought recently expressed on one of Tango's posts that was not addressed. Lots (I'd hazard to say most) of our "sax gods" play or played Selmers-I'm talking mk.VI and Balanced Action. Now I know there weren't any frenchmen standing behind these guys twisting their arms... so the next time you run down one of these horns, think about it. That being said, I only have one Selmer and it's for sale. Jim sets a good example!

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      12. by semipro
        (17 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        I agree with alot of the posts here. I myself hate Selmer but I do own a Ref 54 alto that you would have to pry out of my cold dead fingers. I think that the thing that I hate most about selmer are the looks I got when I walked into a competition or gig with my Yam 52 (that is until I played). It was as if people said "we know this guy is going to be horrible, he can't even pick a decent horn." That is why when I play tested the horns this last time I was sure I would come home with anything other than a Selmer. I was wrong. Now I'm in the market for a tenor and my first choice is a vintage conn becuse I just love the tone my bandmates can get out of them. But having said that, I will try all makes and models before I purchase. I seriously doubt the outcome will be like the alto and but I have to try them all to make sure that whatever I buy works best for me.

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      13. by TANGO SIX ONE
        (255 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        The knights templar state; Selmer are great horns vintage that is. The cigar cutter super sax is a fantastic horn,evry one of them.Just about all BAs are great then out of mK6 early are best.As a conn deciple, the knights would proably rate theBAs as the best.Although all good .The best sounds on selmer for the knights are all early stuff.The pre 36 have a interesting range of undertones,the early mk 6 have the classic wine.After approx 58, 59 ish really its not doing it for us.Lets face it all selmers are pro horns but what on earth you they attempting on mk7.Built for people with hands the size of a shovel.Like all the modern pro instruments they fail for the knights because they are too bright.All young players think this is the idea for modern playing.What they dont work out and some for many years is that brightness is made totally by set up and player. Use a dark horn this is so you can delve into the sub colours and continue expantion of sound.(Bird lives)

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      14. by GordonGekko
        (27 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        I don't hate Selmer saxophones, but I cannot comprehend purchasing a new one today and having a technician take it completely apart and putting it back together so it will sound right. What does that say for quality control? I can understand some minor adjustments, but taking everything apart? Regards, GG

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      15. by The_┬žax
        (147 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        Because they bought Buescher!!! Waaaaaaaaa

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      16. by selmer 4evr
        (309 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        talk bad about me or talk good about me but keep talking about me !!!! If Selmer was so insignificant then nobody would talk about it. Even Selmer haters have Selmer under thier skin because everyone knows Selmer makes the best horns to date hands down. While it is true that some modern horns are on the bright side could it be that this is the trade off for good intonation. (Please Jazz guys don't talk about intonation Jazz hardly requires the same exactness as classical.)

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      17. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        i don't feel like getting into it, but you're wrong.

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      18. by definition
        (963 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        All styles require the same amount of intonation, otherwise we lose the audience kid

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      19. by selmer 4evr
        (309 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        Not when the audience has a martini in hand and a smoke in the other and with all the slurring going on I doubt that jazz requires the intonation and the precise articulation that classical demands. Even Brandford Marsalis went to Sinta for coaching before recording his first album.

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      20. by eman19
        (131 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        I'm not generally a selmer fan because of several reasons. A. They cost to much. I don't know about you, but it would take me three years to pay for a selmer, new or old. Granted other companies make expensive horns, Generally Selmers at the top of the heap. B. They did buy out all other companies. This type of thing just p*sses me off. I mean I understand its business and thats the way that capitalism works but really, do you have to own everything? C. A lot of people use them trying to imitate people. I don't like to be compared to "Giants" in music just because I use the same instrument. I play guitar and one of them is a Fender Strat. Invariably I have people say that Hendrix and Clapton must be my main influences because they both used or use those guitars. Listen to what I sound like don't look at my gear. Using other companies generally makes it so that the instrument that I play is associated with me and MY sound, not some other persons. BUT, I will admit that I played a Ref 54 tenor yesterday that blew my socks off. It fit how I was playing to a T that day, and I was definitely digging it. But I have also played other Selmers (Mark VI alto and tenor) that haven't really impressed me as much as my current horns.

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      21. by EL Seano
        (255 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        Aah, the dead horse is beaten up.

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      22. by chiamac
        (586 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        "Not when the audience has a martini in hand and a smoke in the other and with all the slurring going on I doubt that jazz requires the intonation and the precise articulation that classical demands. Even Brandford Marsalis went to Sinta for coaching before recording his first album." I have to have a drink in hand just to listen to some classical. I'm a old school person, (and somewhat of a republican). classical is just that, classical, and the sax IMO has no place in true classical music. ever listen to bop? I wish some of those guys were around today to read what you had to say... they would track you down and give you a beating Jay and Silent Bob style. ps, I think saxes from the 50's on suck (period). If you're looking for a vintage horn, get them when jazz and the sax were in it's peak, not winding down like in the 60's and 70's. but yeah, I'm mostly kidding around, I don't need to be drunk to listen to classical. =)

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      23. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        I get the impression you've never listened to jazz.

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      24. by connsaxman_jim
        (2336 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        Chiamac, as usual, I couldn't agree with you more! No classical player I ever heard could carry Brandford Marsalis' JOCK STRAP!!! Including Hemke and Sinta! I've never heard you play Selmer4ever, and you may be very good, I don't know, but we obviously have very different styles and opinions. You apparently have no appreciation for jazz, and either can't understand it's complexity or have no desire to. Jazz isn't for everyone, but to say that intonation doesn't matter, you are very wrong!

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      25. by blackfrancis
        (396 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        I went to school with a host of musicians who had a similar attitude towards legit sax. Now I have a fairly thick skin as regards snobbery, but I will say this: it's an ugly thing and ill befits a brother (or sister) sax player. Intonation is important no matter what you do, no mistake. Lay off the remarks regarding jazz audiences. Generalization is a bad policy- lots of these listeners know a lot about music. And broaden your horizons- you miss out on a lot of fun when you put yourself above this or that. Now I'll leave it to Tango and the Knights to lecture you on Bird.

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      26. by TANGO SIX ONE
        (255 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        Response to blackfrancis.The knights templar state :your quote" Generalisation is a bad policy" An excellent first class statement max respect.The knights will be putting that one in the manual.Just to add to some very fine writing from blacfrancis. The knights state. 1.Believe in your self.2 believe in the work that you do.3.Have a strong faith.4 Above all else keep an open mind.(Bird Lives)

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      27. by selmer 4evr
        (309 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        You obviously miss-read my staement I said that (Jazz hardly requires) I never said it required none . Foir instance especailly,,,, the articulation part that classical requires ---precise detache ( DAY TA SHAY french for detachment of the notes ) Jazz is not familiar with this notion ,,it would only make jazz sound too square . Very few jazz artists ( not trying to diminish skill or talent here ) could be at home in both environments in the Benny Goodman tradition. Honesty is usually brutal --you have to be able to take some of this if you are going to dish it out.

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      28. by saxyjeff
        (25 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        with this last in mind I started a new thread regarding intonation jazz vs "wtf is so Legit" playing...will you guys kindly share your thoughts as I'm a little confused about this Legit stuff.... ty

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      29. by definition
        (963 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        Selmer, Jazz playing requires every skill you learn as use in legit playing just as much as you use it there. What sets it apart mostly is the freedom of expression. You dont read what the page says, you put yourself into it. Jazz players have been there, done that in playing legit when learning their craft. We just choose it to not be our main focus. And BTW, just cause classical isnt our main focus, doesnt mean we dont know or cant figure out what detache means, dont talk down to your fellow members like that

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      30. by Spike
        (248 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        I'm pretty sure you precisely articulated my thoughts.

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      31. by phathorn
        (165 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        Chops are chops....whether it be Sinta or Brecker. However, Jim, the line about Sinta not being able to carry branford's jockstrap is a statement I know even Branford would argue. Branford has the utmost respect for Sinta and vice versa. I know because we were both studying with him at the same time.

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      32. by baronvonmeskel
        (17 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        Why knock legit or jazz? I don't by any means consider myself a legit player, but it is important for any well rounded jazz musician (on any instrument) to be proficient in legit styles. Now, to say intonation isn't as important in jazz is ludicrous. I may joke and say "close enough for jazz," but in reality intonation is important for any player. And to assume that jazz players don't know the fine art of articulation is retarded. While the styles may be differant, articulation is equally important in both styles. The only differance is that a jazz player chooses his articulation instead of having a piece of paper tell him. So, why knock legit or jazz? A good player is a good player. Or as phathorn said, "chops are chops." While we all have preferances, to say that one style is superior to the other only shows ignorance.

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      33. by connsaxman_jim
        (2336 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        Branford Marsalis is a great guy! He has the utmost respect for people in general. Sinta is a good classical player, but classical players don't know how to improvise! Sure there are a few exceptions, but....99.99999% of them play the music AS it's written! In a jazz setting, they are completely lost! Take away their sheet music and they're lost! I admire those cats who can just show up at a gig, not knowing the song or the key, and just tear down the roof! That's what impresses me. We were playing in Detroit in 2002, and a little old black man came up and played with us. He had to be in his mid 60's, and he played an old Conn 6M, and he was so good and FAST! He played just like Bird! You would swear he WAS Bird! He said he couldn't read a single note of music, but this guy was the best player I have ever heard in my life!

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      34. by johnsonfromwisconsin
        (767 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        I disagree vehemently on the notion of the saxophone not being a classical instrument. The saxophone is the total package when it come to the versitility and flexibility of the instrument, moreso than any other woodwind. It has a significantly better dynamic range than anything else in the section, can change tonal colours at a whim, and can go from blend to cut with ease. Like the instrument he/she plays, the saxophonist needs and tends to be versitile. Most good professional players become accomplished at both jazz and legit music and their corresponding idioms, including improvisation. I assure you guys like Sinta can improvise.

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      35. by GzsKerqt
        (77 posts)

        13 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        Sry.. i don't know a lot of things.. Can u explain wat an 'Otto Link Super Tone Master' is?

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      36. by GzsKerqt
        (77 posts)

        13 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        Thank you

        Reply To Post


      37. by billibabjo
        (4 posts)

        9 months ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        yr not alone, if u go common sense you hate them

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    3. by billibabjo
      (4 posts)

      9 months ago

      Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

      i love u random guy 8===>

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  3. by AJBalettie
    (11 posts)

    14 years ago

    Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

    Wow! I am impressed!! I can't agree with your article more!! I play on a modern Yamaha, a 1933 Martin and a 1927 King, and all of them beat the hell out of any Mark VI, or SBA or Serie II or III!! Thank you for posting this, I only hope everyone with "Selmer-itis" reads this.

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    1. by SaxMan88
      (318 posts)

      14 years ago

      Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

      I am completely baffled and shocked by this thread. Not that I agree or disagree with anybody...just that it's quite a bit to handle at once. I've only played three Selmer horns in my career...one of them being a vintage Super Action 80, my LaVoix, and now I'm playing on a TS200 because my LaVoix is in the shop. The SA80 I played on was my director's tenor and even though it's a Selmer I'm really not that fond of playing it. The C always feels choked to me, anything down below F you might as well forget trying to play quiet, but other than that the horn is all right. I don't think I'd want it. My LaVoix is the best horn I've ever played, but that might be because it worked. Well, it did work until my director and I discovered the problem that was making my G# key stick open every couple times you touched the key; the rod inside the rib was most likely bent (came to me like this) causing it to stick open. So, I sent it back for a replacement. My friend who now plays bari in the band and who is graduating this year is letting me play his TS200 for replacement. This horn is all right. My LaVoix is better. The TS200 is basically a Bundy II with a Selmer name and a high F# key. And adjustable bumper pads (does anybody ever adjust them anyway?). I'm aiming my sights on a Reference 54 alto for my senior year in HS and my college and possibly the rest of my life. I hope I won't be dissapointed with Selmer. Maybe it's the cosmetic appeal of Selmer? Then maybe the audience just expects a great sound to come with a great looking horn? I don't know...but that's why I'm gonna get my Ref. off of wwbw...if I don't like, send it back. Sanborn lives.

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      1. by bebogle
        (4 posts)

        14 years ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        I too am a little baffled at the direction things have gone here but I have some strong opinions as to Selmer and some of their horns. My first horn was a new Bundy that the school had just bought (this was 1976) and it was crap, I couldn't believe how hard it was to play a brand new horn! After much pleading my parents bought me an older Conn (16m) not great but ok. I lucked into a 1957 Mark VI ($300 in 1980) and have had it ever since. When I went off to college, I had to buy an alto for classical repertoire and bought a Yamaha 52. I still have it and it performs just fine. When it came time for my class to do our Senior recitals, three people asked to borrow my cheapo Yamaha to play their programs. The intonation on the Mark VIIs (that was what was in vogue at the time) was so bad, they were scrambling to get better horns. I've owned a couple of other Selmers since college but never kept one more than a year of so. There's always something it does, certain stuffy notes, bad intonation, dull tone, that makes it "not a keeper". I bought a Yamaha 62 tenor in the 90s and will always keep it as my Rock/Blues horn. Lately I've been collecting Conns and a whole new world has opened up. If only they had the keywork of the Selmers. I've been gigging on a 1936 10M and a 1937 30M lately and nobody has ever asked where my Selmers is. BB

        Reply To Post


        1. by baronvonmeskel
          (17 posts)

          14 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          I think Conns are great. I too wish they just had the keywork like selmers. They are built like tanks. I don't understand the whole selmeritis thing, I think that at a young age players are bombarded with the idea that selmers are superior instruments. In my experience I found that SOME are fantastic instruments. I've played on some SBA's that are just killer. However, thanks to eBay and selmeritis, these horns are just ridiculously priced. And, while selmer still has nice keywork on their new horns, they seem lackluster. Not at all worth what they cost. I was playing on a friends SA80 and it seemed really stuffy. I asked my teacher about it and he mentioned that most SA80s sound like they have a sock stuffed in the neck. Like I said, I think there are some killer older selmers out there, but for what they are going for these days, they just aren't worth it. The new selmers just don't do it for me. For the money, give me my conn 6m anyday over an old selmer and for a new horn give me a Yamaha Custom Z over any new selmer.

          Reply To Post


        2. by mega band geek
          (60 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          I've been playing a MK VI Bari about 5 hours a week for the past two years now. I was among the people who got swept in by all the selmerists and eblieved the MK VI to be some sort of godly instrument. Well, for the past several weeks I've actually been playing it on a regular basis, 2-3 hours a day, and I must say I am very dissapointed. Every time I've played it recently and actually pay attention to the sound that is coming out the end, I find something else about it I don't like. Intonation is by no means perfect like many selmerists claim, high G-C# are stuffy as hell, and I can't get as much volume out of it as I would like. Every time I play it I dislike it a little more. I'll probably end up selling it and buying a Yamaha 62.

          Reply To Post AIM


        3. by selmer 4evr
          (309 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          What other saxes do you play??? Have you had a very good classical musician play your instrument ???? You might find that with someone else behind the wheel the stuffiness will be gone and so will the intonation issues !!!!! I know that many a stuffy Ds on alto are stuffy to others and not me . It all depends on ones support ( I am not saying that you are lacking here I never heard you play ). personally I never liked the MK VI I much prefer the MK VII i find it a more neutral sounding instrument .

          Reply To Post


        4. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          The Mk VII's are worse than the Mk VI's for intonation and sound. There's a reason why the Mark VII's flopped! In fact, you're the only player I know to endorse them, selmer 4evr. When it comes to Selmer, the only saxophones that company made that were worth the brass they were made out of were the earlier Balanced Action and Super Balanced Action alto's, and the Mark VI alto's and tenors from 1954-1958. If you really want a nice baritone, look for a King Zephyr. I have a 1955 Zephyr bari. They have really good intonation and a bold sound.

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        5. by kelsey
          (930 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          The reason Mark VI saxophones cost so much is because of the "want to be players", the high school students with parents with more money than brains, and the collectors all running up the prices. If either of my Mark VI horns are stolen I would probably have to buy Yamaha Z's because I couldn't afford a Mark VI on what I make as a professional musician. Put the Mark VI down enough and maybe we guys who do music for a living might be able to aford to buy one......Flutman
          Barry Kelsey

          Reply To Post AIM


        6. by definition
          (963 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          90% of saxes with any player will be stuffy in the D through A. your tenors and baris are going to get very sharp in the upper register on ny sax your altos and sopranos will always play flat down low. Support has very little to do with it. It is actually nothing without CONTROL. If you have good control of the air, the air support and the horn then you can overcome most of the intonation on a horn. The Stuffiness is always there, regardless of what you say. selmer 4ever, the more I read your posts, the less you seem to know about teh horn in general. You need to spend some time under the woodshed, playing, and learning how the horn works, and not just on the damned selmers you think are soooooo nice! That being said, I also didnt like using the Mark VI bari that was available to me in the university. I went and bought a The Martin Bari, and after the first time I performed it, the others in the sax studio all wanted to use it, and my professor asked to borrow it a few times!

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        7. by semipro
          (17 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          Actually, Going sharp in the high register and flat in the low has something to do with starting in a school band. How many of you have ever heard the band director tell the brass players to tighten up to get those high notes and loosen up to play the low notes. Eventhough theymay not have ever said it to you as a ww player, we all do it subconsciencesly. When I was a grad student I was taught that the embochure is set at middle D and you don't loosen or tight as you go to the extremes. When I play solo work this works. But if you play with other players, (large concert bands in particular) they will tell you that you are flat. Try it!

          Reply To Post


        8. by chiamac
          (586 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          semipro... I think you're right... but I'll add this. we all make those mistakes at first, our fingers fly off the keys, we are sloppy, tone is all over the place... so on. BUT as we become better those things just go away. We find out that it's easier to keep our fingers on the pearls, and so on. Tone has to do with that as well. The better people get they figure out how to do those things. I did! =) (I suck now though)

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        9. by saxomaniac
          (14 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          Ok, I am WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY late in this thread, but let's mix things up a little... anyone ever heard of Rampone and Cazzani? Been playing on a Yanagisawa s880 soprano, tried everything lately of the "big 4" and some other smaller companies. Just got my hands on an R&C curved soprano, R1 model with silver plating.... I know this is off the subject of the post, but I LOVE MY R&C soprano!!!! There, let that mix up the post a little! Seriously though, I'd like anyone's thoughts/experiences on Rampone and Cazzani. Maybe I just got a good one.

          Reply To Post


        10. by ameetp
          (14 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          This is why...you go to a store...and play test the instrument for a few hours before buying it! To see if you like it, if it has any quirks that you don't like, and if you want it! Don't order a sax you've never seen before off of the internet and complain when it arrives on your doorstep a dud.

          Reply To Post


        11. by SaxMan88
          (318 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          I tell ya what ameetp... How about when I go to get my Reference alto you drive my rear to Philadelphia or Boston so I can test it out? Guess what? We all don't have the luxury of going to a pro shop to try out horns...that's why we rely on companies such as WWBW for instruments. Now given you can't play the instrument for sonic qualities, but I just paid a good couple bucks for this instrument, it better work when I get it (mine didn't first time...the replacement I got today had a needle spring knocked out of place that was fixed with some needle nose pliers...it was the low B spring). So therefore I have every right to b**** and moan to the company if the horn I get isn't workable. That's BS...even if I'm an idiot for not going to a showroom to try out horns...I'm out in Northeast PA...closest pro shop is in Philadelphia and I'm 16...permitted to drive but not licensed and not permitted by parents to drive that far yet. Not that I have the sort of $$$ that I'd need if I found a different horn I liked at a different price.

          Reply To Post


        12. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          Why does it have to be a Selmer SaxMan88? Especially if you have had problems with your LaVoix? Why not a Yamaha 62 or a Keilwerth SX-90? Why not a vintage Conn or King? Selmer is a rip-off.

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        13. by SaxMan88
          (318 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          Because I'm young and gullible Jim, and have had my tunnel vision turned toward Selmer for the longest time. I could never imagine playing a Keilwerth; maybe a Yamaha. I never would rule out vintage either...why didn't you list Mark VI or SBA in your list of vintage?

          Reply To Post


        14. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          "Why didn't you list Mark VI or SBA in your list of vintage?" Because they're too expensive, and their are better horns for less money. Both of my Selmers were given to me. I wouldn't pay the kind of money their getting for vintage Selmers. My Mark VI might be my next project horn after I finish my Mulligan. I'll probably have Luke relacquer it for me and then I'll replace the pads. I'd like to have it restored, but it's just not my sound. The SBA I do play occasionally, but my 6M just sounds much better, and plays easier. You could never imagine playing a Keilwerth? Why? I think they're the best modern sax on the market....the Mercedes of saxophones. The B & S Medusa saxophones are really nice too. Hard to beat German engineering and performance. The Yamaha's and Yanagisawas are good. The Selmers are just a rip off. If you absolutely MUST have a Selmer, buy a vintage Mark VI; one of the earlier ones (1954-1958). Otherwise, don't waste your money!

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        15. by definition
          (963 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          I recently got an R&C R1 Jazz sop(gold plate), traded a true tone sop fer it, awesome horn!!!!! I had never heard a bad review of them, so I tried it, very happy now. I beileve Aaron Santee is playing those horns exclusively these days

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        16. by saxomaniac
          (14 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          definition, Good to hear another player has discovered R&C. I sure like mine. I've never played a soprano that was able to speak with such full bodied grunt, yet crystal clarity and focus. I think intonation is the most centered of any I've tried also.

          Reply To Post


        17. by selmer 4evr
          (309 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          Ok guys again with these unqualified statements this is a general discussion forum R&C is a jazz horn-- Selmer is mainly a Classical Horn that can be used for some Jazz but it is not its specialty !! since the advent of the MarkVII and so on ( even later models of MK VI with Mule ) it is people like Hemke ,,Londeix ,,,and now Delangle that are the collaborators on sax design for Selmer what do you expect these are Classical people That is why sax players that play Jazz want early MKVI's ( if you think that the VI did not evolve and that later models sound like the earlier think again ) or SBA's or American Horns So yes R&C are trying to produce a vintage sound

          Reply To Post


        18. by saxomaniac
          (14 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          actually, I own a Selmer. Like it a lot. Don't want to dog on anybody. Kind of seems like the Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge. They all have their strengths and their weaknesses, AND their intended tonal quality, the horns I mean, although a flowmaster exhaust on a Chevy can have a tonal quality all its own!!! : )

          Reply To Post


        19. by SaxMan88
          (318 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          Another fact of the matter is that you can make any horn sound any way you want. Most of you as experienced musicians should know this. Unless the horn is dead, you can add or subtract variables with the horn to make a jazz or classical sound. For example, different mouthpieces, a new neckpipe even, ligatures and reeds all can make a horns sound change. On my LaVoix, I can simply make a sound change by changing me. That's right, all I have to do is control my tone a bit and voila...classical. A little more edge and enthusiasm in my playing and ta-da...jazz. Now I'm gonna get a Dukoff and a Rovner E.D.'s lig for a jazzier sound. The S80 C* hard rubber and Rovner Dark and Vandoren Traditionals don't make for the best jazz setup...which is what I want as of now, BUT it will do considering all I have to do is change my chops and my playing a bit. I also agree with saxomaniac on the Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge...kinda like Coke vs Pepsi...Coke was first and some favor it's taste but Pepsi was the predecessor and the copier but others love Pepsi. Go figure.

          Reply To Post


        20. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          "Another fact of the matter is that you can make any horn sound any way you want". Not true. The horn has a lot to do with the sound. It's like a Fender Stratocaster verses a Gibson Les Paul, or a Ford verses a Chevy. Some have a completely different sound, and while you can effect that sound somewhat depending on the set-up you use; mouthpiece, ligature, reed, etc. they are different saxophones and will always sound different!

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        21. by baronvonmeskel
          (17 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          That is true in a sense. However, a player makes a horn, the horn doesn't make the player. While the horn will have some differant characteristics, a good player should have control over the horn. There has been times I thought my horn was making me sound bad, but I had my teacher play it (with my reed and mpc setup) and it sounded great. Clearly it was me, not the sax.

          Reply To Post


        22. by Hexaclon
          (90 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          Hey, I believe that a good player with "any other horn" sound good, but a good player with a better horn will sound great. Thats a fact, my buescher sounds 10x better that my L.A. SAX. My opinion about selmer...they chost to mutch man... I am sure that my $200.00 true tone buescher beats the crap out my friend's Mrk VI (sound wise). It is true that every horn has its weakness and strong points, but in my opinion there are other horns that have more strong points than selmer and chost less!! Sorry for the crapy english... I'm Puerto Rican. : ) -Hex-

          Reply To Post AIM


        23. by baronvonmeskel
          (17 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          >>I believe that a good player with "any other horn" sound good, but a good player with a better horn will sound great.

          Reply To Post


        24. by barimachine
          (323 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          i agree with that i find alot of players are all selmer selmer selmer, the really good playin kids around here dont, but the ok rich kids at those fancy schools blow there money on selmers. I DO play a selmer *series II bari* but i did like it, i loved the 62 but it kinda felt chunky (DEFINITLY NOT WEIGHT WISE!) it was the way is played felt kinda stiff. Now, unfortunatly, my selmer feels that way, i reallllllly want to get it looked at and get it set up, the springs are kind of stiff and its like a fight against it to push down some keys, or hold them down. But I did like it at the time. I mean i still love it and I DO notice a GREAT difference when ever I have to play a school selmer USA *which is not a selmer at all* so yea i like it, is it the end all best horn, no way, if i hadnt been saving so long and had the money price wise i would have bought a 901 yani. I really want a keilwerth to try but i dont know how I would go about selling or getting money back on my horn to trade for a keilwerth and my parents wouldnt be happy, since i doubt i could afford the trade after the first horn... any one who has done this please advise me! ANYWAY i rambled yes selmer does get alot more playing up than it should... depending where im starting to find EVERYONE is getting yamahas just because, we had about 20 kids get yamahas last year, and i was the only for a selmer, wait no some girl got something too so two. anyway i think the trend is starting to change a little and companies like yamaha yani are killing in the intermediate horn category KILLING because the keilwerth ones are actually made by a crappy jupiter company and the selmer USA's are trash so more power to yani and yamaha for intermediate horns! but if you buy a yani your supporting selmer anyway!

          Reply To Post


        25. by SaxMan88
          (318 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          Not all of the Selmer USA are trash. My Selmer LaVoix is "USA" made (actually Taiwan made) and I feel it's a great solid horn with a great robust sound. A lot went into the construction of the LaVoix horns, whether you like Selmer or not. They basically re-designed the alloy, added several other features that aren't on the Selmer Paris horns, and added most of the Selmer Paris features to my horn. Only thing it lacks is the skilled craftmanship of the Paris horns. Now if you mean USA like the TS200 and AS210 I did play an TS200 and it's not that bad of a horn. For a student rising to the top in the ensembles, it's not a bad investment; however, my LaVoix actually cost less and from playing between the two I'd rather have my LaVoix any day!

          Reply To Post


        26. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          Most of the student-intermediate Selmers are no longer made in the USA. Most are made in Taiwan, like the LaVoix. The LaVoix is a Selmer in name only. After Selmer bankrupted and bought out the American companies, they had to find someone else to build their "cheaper horns" for them, so they turned to the Taiwanese companies like Jupiter. I'm not really sure what the scoop is there. I heard Selmer bought Jupiter. Anyone else know what's going on there? If you suffer from Selmeritis and MUST have a Selmer, than buy a SELMER; not a Jupiter with the Selmer name on it! Buy a BA, SBA, or a Mark VI. Otherwise.....SAVE YOUR MONEY!!!

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        27. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          I have a NEW reason to hate Selmer.......People like selmer 4evr who have no respect for the rights and opinions of others! I shall call these people.....SELMER SUPER SNOBS!

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        28. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          I have a NEW reason to hate Selmer.......People like selmer 4evr who have no respect for the rights and opinions of others! I shall call these people.....SELMER SUPER SNOBS!

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        29. by SaxMan88
          (318 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          Get him Jim! And maybe this is why too that Selmer has a bad pun nowadays. People such as selmer 4evr who boast Selmer Selmer Selmer and when asked why, they attack whoever asks with nonsense. No formed or educated opinion or guesses as to why, just *roar* and *shred*. I don't think I'm a valuable voucher for Selmer. I've only played one Selmer Paris horn and that is an older horn, and two USA horns which I don't think are really a part of the debate here anyway. Jim, what do you think of the Selmer Signets. Aren't they like the Buescher's and etc? I played one...oh I guess that adds to the resume then and I feel that alto rocked the house! PS: Check your e-mail!

          Reply To Post


        30. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          Signets are a lot like the Buescher 400's. They're a pretty good horn....except for the Selmer name! haha

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        31. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          I was listening to your LaVoix MP3, and I was surprised. I thought it sounded a lot like a Conn 16M. I'm going to play around with my computer later and try to record something.

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        32. by SaxMan88
          (318 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          That'd be cool to be able to finally hear you. I guess I should take it as a compliment that my horn sounds like a 16M....so maybe not ALL Selmers are junk, eh Jim?

          Reply To Post


        33. by Cannon
          (23 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          "If you suffer from Selmeritis and MUST have a Selmer, than buy a SELMER; not a Jupiter with the Selmer name on it! Buy a BA, SBA, or a Mark VI. Otherwise.....SAVE YOUR MONEY!!!" Jim, I don't boast that selmer is the end all, be all, by no means...(i have a yani myself). What do you think of the reference horns though? They are of MUCH higher quality than the previous S80 horns that Selmer has produced. Are they not able to be placed in that league of elite vintage Selmers?

          Reply To Post


        34. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          The Reference Series Selmers are good horns. I do think that Selmer puts a little more finess into their Reference series. I have played a few Reference altos and tenors, and I especially like the Ref. 36 altos. In a tenor, I liked the Ref. 54. I owned a Series III soprano for a while. I bought the horn brand new, and I didn't have it very long and the corks started falling off, and the pearl key inserts kept falling out. I took it in for adjustments three times in the 10 months or so that I owned it. I finally got discusted with it and bought a Keilwerth SX-90 soprano and traded the Selmer for a really nice Buescher 400 TH&C tenor which had all new pads about a year ago. It's a 1949 model in mint condition. I just think the Reference horns are too expensive. They're nice horns, but there are a lot of really nice horns on the market that don't cost near as much. I think the best value right now is the Yamaha 62 Series II. Some people think they sound a little thin. They resonate very well. They sound better with an open chamber mouthpiece like a New York Otto Link. I think they have a fairly neutral sound with the stock piece. The 82Z is even a little brighter. Of course, I love the Keilwerth SX 90 and SX 90R. What's not to love? They're made in the spirit of the old Conn's; the R with similated rolled tone holes. I've got to say, the latest Cannonball horns are also very impressive. Cannonball is one I would still want to play and check out throughly before buying. There are some quality control issues with Cannonball to watch out for. I still think that your best bet is to buy a nice vintage horn. For those people who are "die hard" Selmer enthusiasts, I would buy a Mark VI. Not that the Reference horns are not good. but they just don't make them like they used to. I am a firm believer in that! That's why I own 26 saxophones; 25 of them vintage; and 1 new Keilwerth.

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        35. by SaxMan88
          (318 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          Just for clarification Jim there is no such thing as a Ref 36 alto. There's a Ref 54 in a dark honey gold and a Ref 54 in the matte brushed finish...but no 36. I'm gonna get me the original version, not the matte. This will be within a year or two or at worst three years.

          Reply To Post


        36. by baronvonmeskel
          (17 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          26 saxophones?! What do you do for a living? So you sell drugs?

          Reply To Post


        37. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          Well, I started with a Conn 10M and a Conn C Melody that were my fathers and a Conn 14M alto that my grandmother bought for me. I had a nice Selmer SBA given to me by my uncle, and a Selmer Mark VI given to me by an elderly musician friend. The other horns I have aquired either from ebay or through a friend's repair shop, or through musicians who I have played with over the years. I've bought a few with student loan money, and a few others with money from various jobs and inheritance. I bought 14 saxophones just within the last year and a half. Most of them, I bought needing restoration. Since I have learned to repair horns myself, it has been a hobby and even somewhat of an obsession. I particularly love vintage Conn horns. My oldest is a 1908 Conn Wonder alto. I have a couple rare horns, including a Conn C soprano and an F mezzo soprano. I'm looking for a Conn-O-Sax, and a 26M or 30M Connqueror or a 28M Connstellation.

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        38. by connsaxman_jim
          (2336 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          I tried a few new Selmer alto's and the horn I liked best was a gold matte finish. It was a reference series, I'm sure. Must have been a Ref 54 then. The tenor must have been the Ref. 36. It was a dark lacquer model. I probably have them switched around. I'm no expert on Selmer, especially the new models

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        39. by SaxMan88
          (318 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          Yea Jim, What Selmer did was introduce a standard and a collector version of the Reference horns. On the alto, the standard version is the lacquer one and the collector one is the matte finished horn. On the tenor, the standard finish was the matte finish and the collector finish was the lacquer on the Ref 54...on the Ref 36 I believe the only finish avaliable is the lacquer...have to check but that's what's up on that. Hope I helped some confusion.

          Reply To Post


        40. by selmer 4evr
          (309 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          All three reference horns come in the two finishes Selmer calls them Dk Gold Laquered and Matte antiqued. I don't know about prices . Selmer US might not want to carry all so they limit the importing but all are available from Selmer Paris .

          Reply To Post


        41. by SaxMan88
          (318 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          Selmer 4evr is right...after I looked it up the Ref 36 tenor does come in the brushed finish. Some dealers (private, not as big like WWBW) do have the different finishes...but they are still considered rare in the states because of this.

          Reply To Post


        42. by Sax - Singapore
          (3 posts)

          13 years ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          hmm...selmer is nice..the only thing is it cost too much for someone with a tight budget..hmm..for big bands go for buescher..sweet nice , warmth sound.

          Reply To Post


      2. by billibabjo
        (4 posts)

        9 months ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        ive played 3 selmers before, a tenor and two baris, they all sucked so much, just get a yamaha, you can never go wrong with a good old yamaha. Unless your willing to pay 50 grand a cheap yamaha is better

        Reply To Post


      3. by GFC
        (734 posts)

        9 months ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        So, so many factual errors in that rant!  Definitely not something that enhanced the quality of this forum.


        Reply To Post


      4. by ksc
        (2 posts)

        4 months ago

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

        Re: Reasons to hate Selmer ("connsaxman") Whassuup??? Looks like you have too much time on your hands. I don't recall you making any statement at all outside of intimating that you are not in the group that includes virtually every known recording artist and all of the great geniuses in every corner of recorded music. Selmer alto and tenor saxophones are the vehicles responsible for the fantastic haunting sound of King Curtis, Stan Getx and Charles Lloyd, the technical mastery of John Coltrane, Sonny Stitt, Julian Adderly and Michael Brecker, the innovative sound of Grover Washington Jr., David Sanborn and Wayne Shorter, and the great fame of Kenny G, Boots Randolf and Jerome Richardson. But that is only the beginning. These and millions of other Selmer saxophonists became "married" to their horns because they were and always will be, the very best mankind has ever produced, not to be equalled in our time. Hating them makes you pretty much of a one-man army. Good luck with that.

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        1. by mijderf
          (174 posts)

          4 months ago

          Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

          Recognize that Connsaxman_Jim hasn't posted in about 10 years!  He had his opinion, and you have yours.  Opinions are...well just opinions.  But if you read this entire thread, there are more than just one in his army.  Selmer became the horn for pros partly by driving other viable manufacturers out of business.  It got to the point that when a pro needed a new horn, what else was he going to buy if not a Selmer (remember that refurbing vintage horns was not really being done at that time).
          What Connsaxman_Jim wrote is well documented and accurate.  But he wrote why he hated Selmers.  He did not say that others couldn't love Selmers.  I do not like how the Selmer companies did business, but it is what happens in business.  I have no hatred of their instruments (I own a Selmer Series 9* clarinet from 1964).  The reason I do not play Selmer saxophones is simply the unusually high price to purchase one now.  Couple that with the fact that most of the sound is in the embouchure, reed and mouthpiece, means that I can easily get the sound I want with a much less expensive pro horn than a Selmer.

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          1. by historicsaxwhisperer
            (283 posts)

            3 months ago

            Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

            I myself have to admit. I Love this long Vintage Thread and I also Love Selmer. Both my horns and what they did as a business.

            Selmer simply came out with a superior horn at the right time. American post World War mentality got in the way. American Musicians wanted a superior playing horn with superior keywork, so they moved away from their wonderful fat sounding American Brass instruments for an equally wonderful brass made French horn with superior keywork. 90% of the sound you get comes from within the musician.  If the bus is moving too fast its time to get off. So Conn, Buescher, Martin, etc did what they did and were moved into bankruptcy in the long run.

            There are just too large a persentage of professional saxophone legends that play Selmers to even begin to argue this fact.

             

            That is why I love this Vintage thread.

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            1. by jameslara
              (2 posts)

              3 months ago

              Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

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          2. by GFC
            (734 posts)

            3 months ago

            Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

            The American manufacturers drove themselves out of business with bad decisions made during the 1950s and 1960s.  Conn was directionless and ceased all efforts to be competitive in the pro saxophone market by 1955.  Wurlitzer ran Martin into the ground and Seeburg ran King into the ground during the 1960s.  Buescher was a has-been by the time Selmer USA acquired it in 1963.  Selmer USA wasn't responsible for any of that, they just swept up the debris of the once-great American industry. 

            I'll grant that not all of Selmer's practices were on the up-and-up.  The Selmer Artist program was a dishonest marketing ploy, since the quality class of instruments provided under it was was different from that of Selmers sold in most stores.  Selmer's marketing in recent years has been all about various "special edition" gimmicks and cashing in on their reputation, to cover up the fact that they don't offer  good value to the customer.  But they're paying for their arrogance; in the post-2000 era they've lost about 60% of their market.  Here's hoping that they wise up under their new ownership.

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            1. by jameslara
              (2 posts)

              3 months ago

              Re: Reasons to hate Selmer!

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